[Servercert-wg] [EXTERNAL] Clarification about EVG 9.2.4

[Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA)]

Thanks everyone for your contributions to this topic.

To summarize so far, there seems to be a majority preference to require 
the JoI-StateOrProvince to always be included in the subjectDN if the 
JoI-Locality exists, for disambiguation purposes.

The current requirement: "And, the jurisdiction for the applicable 
Incorporating Agency or Registration Agency at the locality level MUST 
include the country and state or province information, where the state 
or province regulates the registration of the entities at the locality 
level, as well as the locality information."

Proposed new requirement: "And, the jurisdiction for the applicable 
Incorporating Agency or Registration Agency at the locality level MUST 
include the country and state or province information, where the state 
or province regulates the registration of the entities at the locality 
level, as well as the locality information."

However, I must admit that the same dilemma was in the Baseline 
Requirements when it was decided (long before I joined the Forum) that 
EITHER subject:stateOrProvinceName OR subject:localityName OR BOTH must 
be included. I assume this was for Countries that didn't have "States Or 
Provinces" but only "Localities". How is this going to play out in the 
JoI case? If we assume a country that doesn't have "States Or 
Provinces", it probably won't have "jurisdictionOfIncorporation" at a 
State Or Province level. How would this be resolved?


Dimitris.


On 2019-12-03 7:10 μ.μ., Kirk Hall via Servercert-wg wrote:
>
> Dimitris – When registration is done at the local level, it could be 
> ambiguous if we allow CAs to only list 
> /subject:jurisdictionLocalityName /and the 
> /subject:jurisdictionCountryName, //but omit 
> the//subject:jurisdictionStateOrProvinceName./
>
> //
>
> /I have listed below all the towns in the US named either “Salem” or 
> “Springfield”  (thanks, Wikipedia) – there are a lot of them.  If 
> place of registration in an EV certificate is just listed as “Salem, 
> US” or “Springfield, US” there would be a potential disambiguation 
> problem./
>
> //
>
> /I think Bruce Morton’s interpretation is correct – if the place of 
> official registration is at the locality level, CAs should also 
> include the State or Province (if any) and the Country./
>
> //
>
>
>       United States[edit
>       <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Salem&action=edit&section=7&editintro=Template:Disambig_editintro>]
>
> ·Salem, Alabama <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Alabama>
>
> ·Salem, Fulton County, Arkansas 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Fulton_County,_Arkansas>, a city
>
> ·Salem, Saline County, Arkansas 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Saline_County,_Arkansas>, a 
> census-designated place
>
> ·Salem, Connecticut <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Connecticut>
>
> ·Salem, Florida <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Florida>
>
> ·Salem, Georgia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Georgia>, in 
> Upson County
>
> ·Salem, Oconee County, Georgia 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Oconee_County,_Georgia>
>
> ·Salem, Illinois <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Illinois>
>
> ·Salem, Indiana <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Indiana>, city 
> in Washington County
>
> ·Salem, Adams County, Indiana 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Adams_County,_Indiana>, 
> unincorporated place
>
> ·Salem, Jay County, Indiana 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Jay_County,_Indiana>, 
> unincorporated place
>
> ·Salem, Union County, Indiana 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Union_County,_Indiana>, 
> unincorporated place
>
> ·Salem, Iowa <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Iowa>
>
> ·Salem, Kentucky <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Kentucky>
>
> ·Salem, Massachusetts <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Massachusetts>
>
> oSalem Maritime National Historic Site 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_Maritime_National_Historic_Site>
>
> oSalem witch trials 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials>, a 1692–93 series 
> of hearings and prosecutions
>
> oSalem Harbor <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_Harbor>
>
> oSalem Channel <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_Channel>, a part 
> of the Salem Sound
>
> oSalem (MBTA station) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_(MBTA_station)>
>
> ·Salem Township, Washtenaw County, Michigan 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_Township,_Washtenaw_County,_Michigan>
>
> ·Salem, Missouri <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Missouri>, 
> county seat of Dent County
>
> ·Salem, Lewis County, Missouri 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Lewis_County,_Missouri>
>
> ·Salem, Nebraska <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Nebraska>
>
> ·Salem, New Hampshire <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_New_Hampshire>
>
> ·Salem, New Jersey <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_New_Jersey>
>
> oSalem Nuclear Power Plant 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_Nuclear_Power_Plant>
>
> oSalem River <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_River>, a tributary 
> of the Delaware River
>
> oPort of Salem <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_Salem>
>
> ·Salem, New Mexico <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_New_Mexico>
>
> ·Salem, New York <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_New_York>, town 
> in Washington County
>
> oSalem (hamlet), New York 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_(hamlet),_New_York>, within the 
> town of Salem
>
> ·Salem, an earlier name of Brocton, New York 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brocton,_New_York>, in Chautauqua County
>
> ·Salem, North Carolina 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_North_Carolina>, 
> census-designated place in Burke County
>
> ·Winston-Salem, North Carolina 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston-Salem,_North_Carolina>, in 
> Forsyth County
>
> oOld Salem <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Salem>, a history museum 
> in Winston-Salem
>
> ·Salem, Ohio <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Ohio>
>
> ·Salem, Oklahoma <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Oklahoma>
>
> ·Salem, Oregon <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Oregon>, the 
> state capital
>
> oSalem Metropolitan Statistical Area 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_Metropolitan_Statistical_Area>, 
> consisting of Marion and Polk counties
>
> oSalem station (Oregon) 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_station_(Oregon)>, a railroad station
>
> ·Salem, South Carolina 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_South_Carolina>
>
> ·Salem, South Dakota 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_South_Dakota>, county seat of 
> McCook County
>
> ·Salem, Tennessee <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Tennessee>, an 
> unincorporated community
>
> ·Salem, Cherokee County, Texas 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Cherokee_County,_Texas>, an 
> unincorporated community
>
> ·Salem, Smith County, Texas 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Smith_County,_Texas>, an 
> unincorporated community
>
> ·Salem, Utah <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Utah>
>
> ·Salem, Virginia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Virginia>, an 
> independent city adjacent to Roanoke
>
> ·Salem, Virginia Beach, Virginia 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Virginia_Beach,_Virginia>, a 
> neighborhood
>
> ·Salem, West Virginia 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_West_Virginia>, a city in 
> Harrison County
>
> ·Salem, Fayette County, West Virginia 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Fayette_County,_West_Virginia>, 
> an unincorporated community
>
> ·Salem, Wisconsin (disambiguation) 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem,_Wisconsin_(disambiguation)>, 
> several places in Wisconsin
>
>
>       United States[edit
>       <https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Springfield&action=edit&section=9&editintro=Template:Disambig_editintro>]
>
> ·Springfield, Alabama, unincorporated community
>
> ·Springfield, Arkansas 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Arkansas>
>
> ·Springfield, California 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_California>
>
> ·Springfield, Colorado 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Colorado>
>
> ·Springfield, Florida 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Florida>, a city in Bay County
>
> ·Springfield (Jacksonville) 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_(Jacksonville)>, Florida, a 
> neighborhood
>
> ·Springfield, Georgia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Georgia>
>
> ·Springfield, Idaho <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Idaho>
>
> ·Springfield, Illinois 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Illinois>, the state 
> capital of Illinois
>
> oSpringfield metropolitan area, Illinois 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_metropolitan_area,_Illinois>
>
> ·Springfield, LaPorte County, Indiana 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_LaPorte_County,_Indiana>
>
> ·Springfield, Posey County, Indiana 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Posey_County,_Indiana>
>
> ·Springfield, Kentucky 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Kentucky>
>
> ·Springfield, Louisiana 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Louisiana>
>
> ·Springfield, Maine <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Maine>
>
> ·Springfield, Massachusetts 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Massachusetts>, the first 
> Springfield settled in America
>
> oSpringfield metropolitan area, Massachusetts 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_metropolitan_area,_Massachusetts>, 
> the most populous Metropolitan Springfield Area
>
> ·Springfield, Michigan 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Michigan>, a city in 
> Calhoun County
>
> ·Springfield, Minnesota 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Minnesota>, in Brown County
>
> ·Springfield, Missouri 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Missouri>, the most 
> populous city named Springfield in the United States
>
> oSpringfield metropolitan area, Missouri 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_metropolitan_area,_Missouri>
>
> ·Springfield, Nebraska 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Nebraska>
>
> ·Springfield, New Hampshire 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_New_Hampshire>
>
> ·Springfield Township, Burlington County, New Jersey 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Township,_Burlington_County,_New_Jersey> (referred 
> to as "Springfield")
>
> ·Springfield Township, Union County, New Jersey 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Township,_Union_County,_New_Jersey> (referred 
> to as "Springfield")
>
> ·Springfield/Belmont, Newark, New Jersey 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield/Belmont,_Newark,_New_Jersey>, 
> a neighborhood of Newark
>
> ·Springfield, New York 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_New_York>
>
> ·Springfield, Ohio <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Ohio>
>
> ·Springfield, Oregon <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Oregon>
>
> ·Springfield Township, Pennsylvania (disambiguation) 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Township,_Pennsylvania_(disambiguation)>
>
> ·Springfield, South Carolina 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_South_Carolina>
>
> ·Springfield, South Dakota 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_South_Dakota>
>
> ·Springfield, Tennessee 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Tennessee>
>
> ·Springfield, Texas 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Texas>, Jim Wells County
>
> ·Springfield, former town and county seat of Limestone County, Texas, 
> now part of Fort Parker State Park 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Parker_State_Park>
>
> ·Springfield, Vermont <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Vermont>
>
> oSpringfield (CDP), Vermont 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_(CDP),_Vermont>
>
> ·Springfield, Virginia 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Virginia>
>
> ·Springfield, Albemarle County, Virginia 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Albemarle_County,_Virginia>
>
> ·Springfield (Coatesville, Virginia) 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_(Coatesville,_Virginia)>, 
> an historic home
>
> ·Springfield, Page County, Virginia 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Page_County,_Virginia>
>
> ·Springfield, Westmoreland County, Virginia 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Westmoreland_County,_Virginia>
>
> ·Springfield, West Virginia 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_West_Virginia>
>
> ·Springfield, Dane County, Wisconsin 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Dane_County,_Wisconsin>, a 
> town
>
> oSpringfield Corners, Wisconsin 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield_Corners,_Wisconsin>, an 
> unincorporated community
>
> ·Springfield, Jackson County, Wisconsin 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Jackson_County,_Wisconsin>, 
> a town
>
> ·Springfield, Marquette County, Wisconsin 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Marquette_County,_Wisconsin>, 
> a town
>
> ·Springfield, St. Croix County, Wisconsin 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_St._Croix_County,_Wisconsin>, 
> a town
>
> ·Springfield, Walworth County, Wisconsin 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Walworth_County,_Wisconsin>, 
> an unincorporated community
>
> *From:* Servercert-wg <servercert-wg-bounces at cabforum.org> *On Behalf 
> Of *Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA) via Servercert-wg
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 3, 2019 12:29 AM
> *To:* Cynthia Revström <me at cynthia.re>; Jeremy Rowley 
> <jeremy.rowley at digicert.com>; CA/B Forum Server Certificate WG Public 
> Discussion List <servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Servercert-wg] [EXTERNAL] Clarification about EVG 9.2.4
>
> Hi Cynthia,
>
> I think your comment is not so much related to the issue at hand. The 
> language for JoI-Locality is the one that needs to be clarified. We 
> are very clear about the other cases.
>
> My original interpretation was that no matter what, if an organization 
> is registered at the locality level, the subjectDN MUST always include 
> /subject:jurisdictionLocalityName /AND 
> /subject:jurisdictionStateOrProvinceName/ AND the 
> /subject:jurisdictionCountryName./ After reading it more carefully I 
> came to the conclusion that there is a different interpretation which 
> was confirmed by Jeremy.
>
> Now, all we need to do is confirm that this was the original intent 
> and if so, we may be able to improve this part of the EVG to make it 
> more clear that it is allowed to include 
> /subject:jurisdictionLocalityName/ without a 
> /subject:jurisdictionStateOrProvinceName/**entry, for the case where 
> the Country doesn't offer registration at the State or Province level.
>
> Is there anyone that objects to this interpretation?
>
>
> Thank you,
> Dimitris.
>
> On 2019-12-02 7:58 μ.μ., Cynthia Revström wrote:
>
>     Hello,
>
>     My interpretation would be that for example if we take Apple as an
>     example, it would be jC=US, jST=California but no locality.
>
>     I understand that this will get very complicated, as for example,
>     in Sweden, limited companies are at a national level while for
>     example sole proprietorships are at a county level.
>
>     - Cynthia
>
>     On Mon, Dec 2, 2019 at 6:50 PM Jeremy Rowley via Servercert-wg
>     <servercert-wg at cabforum.org <mailto:servercert-wg at cabforum.org>>
>     wrote:
>
>         I disagree as that's not what the language says. It says to
>         include the state field if the state regulates registration of
>         the locality. I can't speak to Toronto and how it incorporates
>         entities (if it does), but I think the answer depends heavily
>         on the locality, the type of entity, and how registration occurs.
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         *From:*Servercert-wg <servercert-wg-bounces at cabforum.org
>         <mailto:servercert-wg-bounces at cabforum.org>> on behalf of
>         Bruce Morton via Servercert-wg <servercert-wg at cabforum.org
>         <mailto:servercert-wg at cabforum.org>>
>         *Sent:* Monday, December 2, 2019 10:45:32 AM
>         *To:* Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA) <dzacharo at harica.gr
>         <mailto:dzacharo at harica.gr>>; CA/B Forum Server Certificate WG
>         Public Discussion List <servercert-wg at cabforum.org
>         <mailto:servercert-wg at cabforum.org>>
>         *Subject:* Re: [Servercert-wg] [EXTERNAL] Clarification about
>         EVG 9.2.4
>
>         I guess I am saying that you must include the jurisdiction
>         level where the organization was registered. If the
>         organization was registered at the locality level, then the
>         certificate must include jL and jC. If the country has no
>         states or provinces, then jST must not be used. If the country
>         has states or provinces, then jST must be used, where jST is
>         the state/province for jL.
>
>         Let’s say that we have a company based in Toronto, Ontario,
>         Canada; if it was registered in:
>
>          1. Canada, then the certificate must only have jC=CA
>          2. Ontario, then the certificate must only have jST=Ontario
>             and jC=CA. It cannot have jL=Toronto as the company was
>             not registered by a registrar at the locality level.
>          3. Toronto, then the certificate must have all 3, jL=Toronto,
>             jST=Ontario and jC=CA. jST must be included to help
>             identity where the locality is.
>
>         Bruce
>
>         *From:* Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA) <dzacharo at harica.gr
>         <mailto:dzacharo at harica.gr>>
>         *Sent:* Monday, December 2, 2019 12:26 PM
>         *To:* Bruce Morton <Bruce.Morton at entrustdatacard.com
>         <mailto:Bruce.Morton at entrustdatacard.com>>; CA/B Forum Server
>         Certificate WG Public Discussion List
>         <servercert-wg at cabforum.org <mailto:servercert-wg at cabforum.org>>
>         *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL][Servercert-wg] Clarification about
>         EVG 9.2.4
>
>         On 2019-12-02 7:12 μ.μ., Bruce Morton wrote:
>
>             Hi Dimitris,
>
>             My interpretation is the following:
>
>              1. If the organization is registered at the country
>                 level, then the certificate must include the
>                 /subject:jurisdictionCountryName./
>              2. /If /the organization is /registered as the
>                 state/province level, /then the certificate must
>                 include the /subject:jurisdictionStateOrProvinceName/
>                 and the /subject:jurisdictionCountryName./
>              3. /If /the organization is /registered at the locality
>                 level, /then the certificate must include the
>                 /subject:jurisdictionLocalityName/ and the
>                 /subject:jurisdictionCountryName;//and must include
>                 the //subject:jurisdictionStateOrProvinceName, //only
>                 if the locality is in a state/province./
>
>
>         Hi Bruce, thanks for your reply.
>
>         The first two are quite clear.
>
>         The following:
>         "/and must include the
>         //subject:jurisdictionStateOrProvinceName, //only if the
>         locality is in a state/province"/
>
>         is not so clear to me. Perhaps you could elaborate with a
>         couple of theoretical examples? I seems that the
>         StateOrProvince is mixed with Locality in your description but
>         I might have misunderstood.
>
>
>         Dimitris.
>
>
>             4.
>
>             //
>
>             /Bruce./
>
>             *From:* Servercert-wg <servercert-wg-bounces at cabforum.org>
>             <mailto:servercert-wg-bounces at cabforum.org> *On Behalf Of
>             *Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA) via Servercert-wg
>             *Sent:* Monday, December 2, 2019 12:02 PM
>             *To:* CA/B Forum Server Certificate WG Public Discussion
>             List <servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>             <mailto:servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>             *Subject:* [EXTERNAL][Servercert-wg] Clarification about
>             EVG 9.2.4
>
>             *WARNING:* This email originated outside of Entrust Datacard.
>             *DO NOT CLICK* links or attachments unless you trust the
>             sender and know the content is safe.
>
>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>             Dear members,
>
>             I would like to ask for a clarification/interpretation
>             about section 9.2.4 of the EV Guidelines and please
>             forgive me if this has been discussed in the past.
>
>
>                   9.2.4. Subject Jurisdiction of Incorporation or
>                   Registration Field
>
>             "*Contents:* These fields MUST NOT contain information
>             that is not relevant to the level of the Incorporating
>             Agency or Registration Agency. For example, the
>             Jurisdiction of Incorporation for an Incorporating Agency
>             or Jurisdiction of Registration for a Registration Agency
>             that operates at the country level MUST include the
>             country information but MUST NOT include the state or
>             province or locality information. Similarly, the
>             jurisdiction for the applicable Incorporating Agency or
>             Registration Agency at the state or province level MUST
>             include both country and state or province information,
>             but MUST NOT include locality information. And, the
>             jurisdiction for the applicable Incorporating Agency or
>             Registration Agency at the locality level MUST include the
>             country and state or province information, where the state
>             or province regulates the registration of the entities at
>             the locality level, as well as the locality information.
>             Country information MUST be specified using the applicable
>             ISO country code. State or province or locality
>             information (where applicable) for the Subject's
>             Jurisdiction of Incorporation or Registration MUST be
>             specified using the full name of the applicable jurisdiction."
>
>             Is it allowed to include a
>             /subject:jurisdictionLocalityName/ without providing a
>             /subject:jurisdictionStateOrProvinceName/?
>
>             The requirement says "And, the jurisdiction for the
>             applicable Incorporating Agency or Registration Agency at
>             the locality level MUST include the country and state or
>             province information, where the state or province
>             regulates the registration of the entities at the locality
>             level, as well as the locality information."
>
>             In one interpretation, if there is no "state or province"
>             that regulates the registration of entities but this
>             registration is done at the locality level, then the
>             /subject:jurisdictionStateOrProvinceName/ can be omitted
>             and only the /subject:jurisdictionLocalityName/ is
>             included along with the /subject:jurisdictionCountryName/.
>             Is this an accurate and valid interpretation?
>
>
>             Thank you,
>             Dimitris.
>
>
>
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