[Servercert-wg] [EXTERNAL]-Re: SC-065: Convert EVGs into RFC 3647 format pre-ballot
Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA)
dzacharo at harica.gr
Fri Jan 19 18:59:45 UTC 2024
Hi Pedro,
If the proposed ballot interacts with sections that are modified by an
existing ballot, the second ballot proposer needs to describe what will
the possible results of that section look like, basically by writing
down the expected language if the first ballot passes or fails.
Bylaws section 2.4 (10):
/
If a ballot is proposed to amend the same section of the Final
Guidelines or the Final Maintenance Guidelines as one or more previous
ballot(s) that has/have not yet been finally approved, the newly
proposed ballot must include information about, and a link to, any such
previous ballot(s), and may include provisions to avoid any conflicts
relating to such previous ballots./
I hope this helps.
Dimitris.
On 19/1/2024 2:34 μ.μ., Pedro FUENTES wrote:
> Hello,
> I’d like to know how this would interact with the change proposed by
> Dimitris for the VATEL thing.
> In my case I did put on hold my own proposed change (regulation of use
> of QGIS for organization validation) until the doc was in RFC format,
> and I wonder if we should do the same for other proposed changes, as I
> guess the order of the ballots is important here.
> Best,
> Pedro
>
>> On 19 Jan 2024, at 13:27, Inigo Barreira via Servercert-wg
>> <servercert-wg at cabforum.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>> As per yesterday´s SCWG call, I´ve also updated the BRs with the new
>> section numbers of the EVG. Only 2 sections have been affected and
>> therefore updated.
>> Section 3.2.2.4.7
>> EVG 11.14.3à3.2.2.14.3
>> Section 7.1.2.7.5
>> EVG 9.2à7.1.4.2
>> You can find all the information in the PR 440,EVGs based on RFC3647
>> by barrini · Pull Request #440 · cabforum/servercert (github.com)
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_cabforum_servercert_pull_440_commits&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=wsg-TdwvnM_b-Pg3U1XTwuszyojufD0lb45hNqvXdBXdCbT5NwVJ3w_4u0QY-JUd&s=4yDjCByZihcF66OPg0-LImW7hEJ3BRBPpguv_Dh5h0I&e=>
>> First, I had to update the current version of the BRs I was working
>> with (2.0.0) to the current one (2.0.2) and then make the changes to
>> the newest one.
>> Regards
>> *De:*Inigo Barreira <Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>
>> *Enviado el:*viernes, 15 de diciembre de 2023 12:42
>> *Para:*Inigo Barreira <Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>; CA/B Forum Server
>> Certificate WG Public Discussion List <servercert-wg at cabforum.org>;
>> Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA) <dzacharo at harica.gr>; Bruce Morton
>> <Bruce.Morton at entrust.com>; Tim Hollebeek <tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>
>> *Asunto:*RE: [Servercert-wg] SC-065: Convert EVGs into RFC 3647
>> format pre-ballot
>> Hi everyone
>> As per last week discussion during the SCWG, we agreed to follow
>> section 6 of the RFC 3647 for the new EVG format.
>> With that in mind, I´ve updated the correspondent PR (#440) to
>> reflect it that way, so:
>>
>> * Changed section 1.1 name from scope to overview
>> * Created a new section 3.2.1 for possession of the private key
>> * Moved all the other stuff of the old section 11 to a “new”
>> section 3.2.2 for organization identity.
>> * Also created the remaining ones, 3.2.3, 3.2.4, etc.
>> * Update section 8 removing section 8.1 and renumbering the others
>> and putting the self audits under 8.1 and leaving section 8.7 for
>> readiness audits because don´t know where it can fit better (this
>> section does not exist in RFC 3647 section 6)
>> * Checked all links
>>
>> In any case, see the comparison here:Comparing
>> 90a98dc7c1131eaab01af411968aa7330d315b9b...238ff99fbe04f2aa24f2c58910d8133f2283f11e
>> · cabforum/servercert (github.com)
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_cabforum_servercert_compare_90a98dc7c1131eaab01af411968aa7330d315b9b...238ff99fbe04f2aa24f2c58910d8133f2283f11e&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=wsg-TdwvnM_b-Pg3U1XTwuszyojufD0lb45hNqvXdBXdCbT5NwVJ3w_4u0QY-JUd&s=Fkxi2puIea-XluHGWRpA2fMQdGTdESWl6jTcxt-Mh2I&e=>
>> If you´re ok with this change, we can move forward a propose the
>> ballot for which I´ll need 2 endorsers.
>> Regards
>> *De:*Servercert-wg <servercert-wg-bounces at cabforum.org>*En nombre
>> de*Inigo Barreira via Servercert-wg
>> *Enviado el:*jueves, 7 de diciembre de 2023 13:08
>> *Para:*Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA) <dzacharo at harica.gr>; Bruce
>> Morton <Bruce.Morton at entrust.com>; CA/B Forum Server Certificate WG
>> Public Discussion List <servercert-wg at cabforum.org>; Tim Hollebeek
>> <tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>
>> *Asunto:*Re: [Servercert-wg] SC-065: Convert EVGs into RFC 3647
>> format pre-ballot
>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
>> not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender
>> and know the content is safe.
>> Hi there,
>> See the comparing one.
>> Comparing
>> 90a98dc7c1131eaab01af411968aa7330d315b9b...13b4f85a494fefa52510512a2fb3c4d7c77a7a36
>> · cabforum/servercert (github.com)
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_cabforum_servercert_compare_90a98dc7c1131eaab01af411968aa7330d315b9b...13b4f85a494fefa52510512a2fb3c4d7c77a7a36&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=wsg-TdwvnM_b-Pg3U1XTwuszyojufD0lb45hNqvXdBXdCbT5NwVJ3w_4u0QY-JUd&s=SAlnT_XxVC5MVdb-AWK-2-2ft5iK_-91Uh8zev3Au44&e=>
>> Regards
>> *De:*Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA) <dzacharo at harica.gr>
>> *Enviado el:*lunes, 4 de diciembre de 2023 22:18
>> *Para:*Bruce Morton <Bruce.Morton at entrust.com>; Inigo Barreira
>> <Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>; CA/B Forum Server Certificate WG Public
>> Discussion List <servercert-wg at cabforum.org>; Tim Hollebeek
>> <tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>
>> *Asunto:*Re: [Servercert-wg] SC-065: Convert EVGs into RFC 3647
>> format pre-ballot
>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
>> not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender
>> and know the content is safe.
>>
>> On 4/12/2023 9:22 μ.μ., Bruce Morton wrote:
>>
>> I thought an intriguing promise of doing documents in Github and
>> in the same format is that we would see the requirements in the
>> same section, which would allow for better management. Also, the
>> proposal Paul brought forward for the BR of BRs would work much
>> better if we use the same sections. I guess I am encouraging the
>> move of EV from a non-standard format to a sort of standard RFC
>> 3647 format would be to help provide document alignment.
>> +1 to Dimitris original suggestion.
>>
>> * https://github.com/cabforum/code-signing/compare/main...importEVG
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_cabforum_code-2Dsigning_compare_main...importEVG&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=wsg-TdwvnM_b-Pg3U1XTwuszyojufD0lb45hNqvXdBXdCbT5NwVJ3w_4u0QY-JUd&s=IH-hz12ss4KJRRKpXUPs_ykN-ftU1yP8_QWnqFumUpE&e=>
>>
>> This is currently WIP, maintaining the numbering of RFC 3647 section
>> 6, and moving the EV Guidelines sections referenced by the CSBRs into
>> new sections. We've done these conversions in the past and they
>> worked pretty well, leading to consistently structured policy
>> documents across the ecosystem.
>>
>> It's not perfect but it tries to move requirements to where RFC 3647
>> and the BRs expect them to be. For example, section 11.14 of the EV
>> Guidelines talks about re-use of existing documentation which fits
>> into section 4.2.1 of the BRs.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dimitris.
>>
>> Thanks, Bruce.
>> *From:*Servercert-wg<servercert-wg-bounces at cabforum.org>
>> <mailto:servercert-wg-bounces at cabforum.org>*On Behalf Of*Inigo
>> Barreira via Servercert-wg
>> *Sent:*Monday, December 4, 2023 2:15 PM
>> *To:*Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA)<dzacharo at harica.gr>
>> <mailto:dzacharo at harica.gr>; Tim
>> Hollebeek<tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>
>> <mailto:tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>
>> *Cc:*CA/B Forum Server Certificate WG Public Discussion
>> List<servercert-wg at cabforum.org> <mailto:servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>> *Subject:*[EXTERNAL] Re: [Servercert-wg] SC-065: Convert EVGs
>> into RFC 3647 format pre-ballot
>> Dimitris, I think that we should focus on the EVG not on the
>> CP/CPS. The CA´s CP/CPS will have that 3. 2. 1 section because
>> it´s in the TLS BRs but that does not mean that the EVG must have
>> also that section 3. 2. 1 (BTW, the section exist in the
>> Dimitris,
>> I think that we should focus on the EVG not on the CP/CPS. The
>> CA´s CP/CPS will have that 3.2.1 section because it´s in the TLS
>> BRs but that does not mean that the EVG must have also that
>> section 3.2.1 (BTW, the section exist in the TLS BRs but with no
>> content). At the end of the day, every CA issuing TLS certs will
>> have to follow the TLS BRs and EVGs and then accommodate their
>> CP/CPSes according to both documents.
>> I understand your point to be stricter in the implementation of
>> that specific point but for every CA to change/update their
>> current CP/CPS with the new EVG in the RFC 3647 format, would
>> find it easier to where to make those changes/adjustments in
>> their own CP/CPS if we can convert easily the current section 11
>> into 3.2 and not to start looking into different numbers to make
>> that change.
>> Regards
>> *De:*Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA) <dzacharo at harica.gr>
>> *Enviado el:*lunes, 4 de diciembre de 2023 20:02
>> *Para:*Tim Hollebeek <tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>; Inigo Barreira
>> <Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>
>> *CC:*CA/B Forum Server Certificate WG Public Discussion List
>> <servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>> *Asunto:*Re: [Servercert-wg] SC-065: Convert EVGs into RFC 3647
>> format pre-ballot
>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization.
>> Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the
>> sender and know the content is safe.
>>
>> FWIW, there are informational RFCs that include SHOULD
>> requirements (I didn't check for other informational RFCs that
>> might contain SHALL requirements). Take a look atRFC 8894
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.com_v3_-5F-5Fhttps-3A_datatracker.ietf.org_doc_html_rfc8894-5F-5F-3B-21-21FJ-2DY8qCqXTj2-21cDhQeVwolbnJ6hdDSRwEKs2w1lDqgYkiUHc4ApuZ3kUIV3BDxbQ0XAAIsJDbSWbqRevehayXBz-5Foc-2DH9s1zZDBI0YJAc7w-24&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=wsg-TdwvnM_b-Pg3U1XTwuszyojufD0lb45hNqvXdBXdCbT5NwVJ3w_4u0QY-JUd&s=eZUOnibdXAEm7TArY-4NlpNDvdpq2qrcI6Os5GzWvtY&e=>.
>>
>> I agree that there seems to be some ambiguity in the REQUIRED
>> CP/CPS structure but the entire reasoning behind using the "RFC
>> 3647 format" was to align CP and CPS documents so that
>> comparisons can be made across different CAs. If one CA reads
>> that they must follow a 2-level structure based on section 4, and
>> another CA reads that they must follow the structure of section 6
>> of the RFC, we're not meeting the goal for alignment and easy
>> comparisons.
>>
>> Digicert's CPS seems to follow the structure of section 6 of RFC
>> 3647. Has anyone spotted a CPS claiming compliance with the TLS
>> BRs that is not following the section 6 structure of 3647?
>>
>> If all existing public CAs follow the structure of section 6 of
>> 3647 in their CP/CPS documents, we can just clarify that the
>> expectation is what Ben mentioned
>> inhttps://github.com/BenWilson-Mozilla/pkipolicy/commit/1a94642cb95017cf382e4e93811db16a2342a806
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.com_v3_-5F-5Fhttps-3A_github.com_BenWilson-2DMozilla_pkipolicy_commit_1a94642cb95017cf382e4e93811db16a2342a806-5F-5F-3B-21-21FJ-2DY8qCqXTj2-21cDhQeVwolbnJ6hdDSRwEKs2w1lDqgYkiUHc4ApuZ3kUIV3BDxbQ0XAAIsJDbSWbqRevehayXBz-5Foc-2DH9s1zZDBIIavReJg-24&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=wsg-TdwvnM_b-Pg3U1XTwuszyojufD0lb45hNqvXdBXdCbT5NwVJ3w_4u0QY-JUd&s=7yKm78aVhCw6xlE85YVTEd_kGz4SHJhZ83xtcshx1Ag&e=>,
>> so that we address this ambiguity. We probably don't even need an
>> effective date if it causes no issue on existing CAs.
>>
>> My point is that if we leave this open to interpretation, we
>> can't compare CP/CPS sections across multiple CAs efficiently,
>> and this defeats the whole purpose of the requirement to
>> structure CP/CPS documents according to RFC 3647. We might as
>> well abandon the idea of converting the EV Guidelines into that
>> format.
>>
>> I believe that the intent has always been to enforce a "stricter"
>> alignment. But if indeed there are deviations, I'd support some
>> stricter language to align CP/CPS documents according to section
>> 6 of RFC 3647 even with a future effective date :)
>>
>>
>> Dimitris.
>>
>> On 4/12/2023 7:27 μ.μ., Tim Hollebeek wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, the fact that the section 6 outline goes deeper than
>> the actual described format in section 4 is annoying, and
>> you’re right, it’s probably the source of these
>> disagreements. I always look at section 4, because it has
>> the actual guidance about what sort of information should be
>> considered for inclusion.
>> This is what happens when people try to turn informational
>> documents into normative requirements. You have to try to
>> interpret what phrases like “are strongly advised to adhere”,
>> which isn’t even a RFC 2119 SHOULD. And it can’t even be a
>> SHOULD, because as an informational RFC, it is prohibited
>> from having requirements, even SHOULDs! That’s why it’s
>> written that way. Also, informational RFCs are not examined
>> as closely for inconsistencies (because there are no
>> requirements!) which is how divergences like section 4 vs 6
>> happen. It wasn’t intended to be used as a compliance document.
>> I still think what Inigo did is perfectly fine, although
>> there are lots of other perfectly fine solutions, too. What
>> we need to be discussing is what’s best for us, not RFC 3647
>> requires, because RFC 3647 has infinite leeway. As Aaron and
>> I have been pointing out, you’ll find lots of divergences at
>> level three, and there’s even lots of additional content in
>> level two, just because a lot of newer content doesn’t really
>> have a good fit in RFC 3647.
>> Now, that said, we might want to be more strict in the
>> future, and if we choose to do so, we can be. I just don’t
>> want people overstating what the rules actually are, because
>> a lot of people’s time has been wasted enforcing RFC 3647 in
>> a way that is far stricter than was ever intended (one of the
>> reasons I’m so vocal on this issue is because I got this
>> point of view from one of the original authors).
>> -Tim
>> *From:*Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA)<dzacharo at harica.gr>
>> <mailto:dzacharo at harica.gr>
>> *Sent:*Saturday, December 2, 2023 5:26 AM
>> *To:*Tim Hollebeek<tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>
>> <mailto:tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>; Inigo
>> Barreira<Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>
>> <mailto:Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>
>> *Cc:*CA/B Forum Server Certificate WG Public Discussion
>> List<servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>> <mailto:servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [Servercert-wg] SC-065: Convert EVGs into RFC
>> 3647 format pre-ballot
>>
>> We still have a disagreement so please allow me one more
>> attempt to clarify my position because it seems you didn't
>> check the links included in my previous post. I will copy
>> some of that text here for convenience.
>>
>> On 1/12/2023 11:31 μ.μ., Tim Hollebeek wrote:
>>
>> No.
>> IETF has both Normative and Informative RFCs. While it
>> is true that compliance with a Normative RFC is
>> voluntary, if you do choose to comply, the RFC has
>> requirements stated in RFC 2119 standards language that
>> make it clear what the compliance rules are. Informative
>> RFCs like 3647 do not have any normative requirements at
>> all. They merely contain information.
>> “all sections of the RFC 3647 framework” is fine, this
>> covers the sections enumerated in RFC 3647 section 4,
>> which includes the TOP TWO levels of an outline in
>> numbered form, e.g. the requirements for section 3.2 are
>> described in RFC 3647 section 4.3.2. There is no RFC
>> 3647 section 4.3.2.1, which proves my point. RFC 3647
>> only has a two level outline structure.
>>
>>
>> I think I might have a hint on our disconnect. RFC 3647 has
>> an indicative Table of Contents in Chapter 6
>> (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc3647#section-6
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.com_v3_-5F-5Fhttps-3A_datatracker.ietf.org_doc_html_rfc3647-2Asection-2D6-5F-5F-3BIw-21-21FJ-2DY8qCqXTj2-21cDhQeVwolbnJ6hdDSRwEKs2w1lDqgYkiUHc4ApuZ3kUIV3BDxbQ0XAAIsJDbSWbqRevehayXBz-5Foc-2DH9s1zZDBKp-5FQdGmg-24&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=wsg-TdwvnM_b-Pg3U1XTwuszyojufD0lb45hNqvXdBXdCbT5NwVJ3w_4u0QY-JUd&s=cp3VExDM2DhLCKZSB-C46rsVM45LgWuB6qsMlwtjSHY&e=>)
>> outlining the proposed CP/CPS sections and subsections using
>> 3 levels.
>>
>> Here is the text of the opening paragraph of that section
>> (emphasis added):
>>
>> This section contains a recommended outline for a set of provisions,
>>
>> intended to serve as a checklist or (with some further development) a
>>
>> standard template for use by CP or CPS writers. Such a common
>>
>> outline will facilitate:
>>
>>
>>
>> (a) Comparison of two certificate policies during cross-
>>
>> certification or other forms of interoperation (for the purpose
>>
>> of equivalency mapping).
>>
>>
>>
>> (b) Comparison of a CPS with a CP to ensure that the CPS faithfully
>>
>> implements the policy.
>>
>>
>>
>> (c) Comparison of two CPSs.
>>
>>
>>
>> * In order to comply with the RFC, the drafters of a
>> compliant CP or*
>>
>> * CPS are strongly advised to adhere to this outline.* While use of an
>>
>> alternate outline is discouraged, it may be accepted if a proper
>>
>> justification is provided for the deviation and a mapping table is
>>
>> provided to readily discern where each of the items described in this
>>
>> outline is provided.
>>
>>
>> The reason the CA/B Forum BRs were structured according to
>> this outline was to assist with comparisons between CP/CPS
>> documents of different CAs, making the review of these
>> documents easier.
>>
>> That's why you see sections like 1.5.4 "CPS approval
>> procedures" in the BRs as an empty section with "No
>> Stipulation". There are many such sections in the BRs, all
>> coming from section 6 of RFC 3647.
>>
>> I hope this is clearer now.
>>
>> BR Section 2.2 needs to be re-written, as there are no
>> materials required by RFC 3647 (because RFC 3647 contains
>> no requirements). It needs to say something like
>> “structured in accordance with RFC 3647 and MUST include
>> all sections of the outline described in section 4” or
>> something like that. What it says right now doesn’t
>> capture the intent that you correctly summarized.
>>
>>
>> During the last couple of years reviewing CP/CPS documents, I
>> saw some uniformity at least in Publicly Trusted CAs, and
>> they all seem to follow the BRs structure which comes from
>> the outline of section 6 of RFC 3647. However, it's not a bad
>> idea to further clarify BR section 2.2 to better meet the
>> expectations.
>>
>> The MSRP language is better, I think I may have made all
>> of these same points when it was being drafted, which is
>> why it says “section and subsection” (two levels) and
>> uses “structured according to” and not “complies with the
>> requirements of”.
>> But anyway, this is all background that supports what
>> I’ve been saying all along: BR 3.2 is a RFC 3647
>> section. BR 3.2.1 **is not** a RFC 3647 required
>> section, nor is it even a section that is even mentioned
>> in RFC 3647. If you don’t believe me, please go to RFC
>> 3647, Section 4.3.2.1 and read what it says. OH, WAIT,
>> IT DOESN’T EXIST!😊
>>
>>
>> To my point, BR 3.2.1 IS an RFC 3647 required section as it
>> is explicitly mentioned in the outline of section 6 of RFC 3647:
>>
>> 3.2.1 Method to prove possession of private key
>>
>>
>> Details about the contents of that section can be found in
>> the first bullet ofsection 4.3.2 of RFC 3647
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.com_v3_-5F-5Fhttps-3A_datatracker.ietf.org_doc_html_rfc3647-2Asection-2D4.3.2-5F-5F-3BIw-21-21FJ-2DY8qCqXTj2-21cDhQeVwolbnJ6hdDSRwEKs2w1lDqgYkiUHc4ApuZ3kUIV3BDxbQ0XAAIsJDbSWbqRevehayXBz-5Foc-2DH9s1zZDBIL19sP-5Fw-24&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=wsg-TdwvnM_b-Pg3U1XTwuszyojufD0lb45hNqvXdBXdCbT5NwVJ3w_4u0QY-JUd&s=VVgYrcQHYItvxshaRW05i_oEkdLisu_m-OdTzlBeXn8&e=>.
>>
>> Does that make more sense?
>>
>> Dimitris.
>>
>> -Tim
>> *From:*Dimitris Zacharopoulos
>> (HARICA)<dzacharo at harica.gr> <mailto:dzacharo at harica.gr>
>> *Sent:*Friday, December 1, 2023 1:04 PM
>> *To:*Tim Hollebeek<tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>
>> <mailto:tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>; Inigo
>> Barreira<Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>
>> <mailto:Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>
>> *Cc:*CA/B Forum Server Certificate WG Public Discussion
>> List<servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>> <mailto:servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [Servercert-wg] SC-065: Convert EVGs into
>> RFC 3647 format pre-ballot
>>
>> Hi Tim,
>>
>> None of the IETF standards set policy unless they are
>> invited by some policy authority :) The BRs set such
>> policy and "import" some documents, such as RFC 5280,
>> 3647 and others.
>>
>> The BRs in section 1.1 state:
>>
>>
>> These Requirements do not address all of the issues
>> relevant to the issuance and management of
>> Publicly-Trusted Certificates. In accordance with RFC
>> 3647 and to facilitate a comparison of other
>> certificate policies and CPSs (e.g. for policy
>> mapping), this document includes all sections of the
>> RFC 3647 framework. However, rather than beginning
>> with a "no stipulation" comment in all empty
>> sections, the CA/Browser Forum is leaving such
>> sections initially blank until a decision of "no
>> stipulation" is made
>>
>>
>> In addition, section 2.2 states (emphasis added):
>>
>>
>> The Certificate Policy and/or Certification Practice
>> Statement MUST be structured in accordance with RFC
>> 3647 and*MUST include all material required by RFC 3647*.
>>
>>
>> If you go back to the discussions when the CA/B Forum
>> decide to align with the "RFC 3647 format", we agreed to
>> include each and every section of the outline as a
>> minimum set.
>>
>> MRSP states in section 3.3 (5) (again, emphasis added):
>>
>>
>> 5. all CPs, CPSes, and combined CP/CPSes MUST be
>> structured according to RFC 3647 and MUST:
>>
>> - include*at least every section and subsection
>> defined in RFC 3647*;
>> - only use the words "No Stipulation" to mean
>> that the particular document imposes no requirements
>> related to that section; and
>> - contain no sections that are blank and have no
>> subsections;
>>
>>
>> So, with all that considered, when we visitsection 6 of
>> RFC 3647
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.com_v3_-5F-5Fhttps-3A_datatracker.ietf.org_doc_html_rfc3647-2Asection-2D6-5F-5F-3BIw-21-21FJ-2DY8qCqXTj2-21cDhQeVwolbnJ6hdDSRwEKs2w1lDqgYkiUHc4ApuZ3kUIV3BDxbQ0XAAIsJDbSWbqRevehayXBz-5Foc-2DH9s1zZDBKp-5FQdGmg-24&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=wsg-TdwvnM_b-Pg3U1XTwuszyojufD0lb45hNqvXdBXdCbT5NwVJ3w_4u0QY-JUd&s=cp3VExDM2DhLCKZSB-C46rsVM45LgWuB6qsMlwtjSHY&e=>("the
>> outline"), the expectation is to include each and every
>> section and subsection of the outline (up to three levels).
>>
>> CAs are free to add MORE sections and subsections as they
>> desire, just like the BRs have done, but we can't escape
>> or "hijack" an existing RFC 3647 section number. The
>> outline contains a specific section labeled as "3.2.1
>> Method to prove possession of private key". That means we
>> cannot re-use the number 3.2.1 for something else.
>>
>> I hope this sounds reasonable to people.
>>
>> Dimitris.
>>
>> On 1/12/2023 6:51 μ.μ., Tim Hollebeek wrote:
>>
>> This is unfortunately wrong. There are lots of
>> misconceptions about RFC 3647 “compliance”.
>> The first point is that RFC 3647 is an INFORMATIONAL
>> RFC. You can see this right at the top, where it
>> says “Category: Informational”. This means that it
>> contains no requirements and it’s impossible to be
>> out of compliance with it. This is why I put quotes
>> around “compliance”. Any requirements around it need
>> to come from elsewhere, for example, a root program
>> requirement that requires a particular document to be
>> in RFC 3647 format. But that’s vague and informal,
>> because 3647 doesn’t have requirements, it just has
>> an outline and suggested contents. It’s not 100%
>> precise what “MUST be in RFC 3647 format” means, and
>> we need to just acknowledge that (specifying it
>> precisely would be a colossal waste of time).
>> So what does “RFC 3647 format” mean? RFC 3647’s
>> outline only covers the first two levels. So
>> “Section 3.2: Initial Identity Validation” is a RFC
>> 3647 section header, and most reasonable
>> interpretations of “RFC 3647 format” would require it
>> to exist with that or a substantially similar name
>> and contents.
>> Section 3.2.1, on the other hand, is not an RFC 3647
>> section. It’s common to have a third level of
>> headers that mirror the “bullet points” in the
>> suggested content for the section, but those are just
>> unordered bullet lists in RFC 3647. Claiming that
>> section 3.2.1 of a document in RFC 3647 must describe
>> private key protection goes beyond what RFC 3647
>> says. Section 3.2 just “contains the following
>> elements”, so private key protection is just one of
>> several topics that one might discuss in section
>> 3.2. It could be section 3.2.1, but it could be
>> elsewhere in 3.2, and it’s perfectly fine for 3.2.1
>> to not exist, have different content, etc.
>> Figuring out where section 11.1 goes is not trivial,
>> but at first glance, section 3.2 is not an
>> unreasonable choice, and I can understand why Inigo
>> made it. And there isn’t a compliance reason why it
>> can’t be section 3.2.1, if that’s what we want.
>> Of course, we could convert the recommended bulleted
>> sections to a numbered list of subsections (we often
>> do elsewhere), in which case section 3.2.1 could be
>> “Private Key Protection” with contents “No
>> Stipulation”. If we do that, I suggest we follow the
>> rest of the bullets as well.
>> Either way works.
>> -Tim
>> *From:*Dimitris Zacharopoulos<dzacharo at harica.gr>
>> <mailto:dzacharo at harica.gr>
>> *Sent:*Friday, December 1, 2023 10:48 AM
>> *To:*Inigo Barreira<Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>
>> <mailto:Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>
>> *Cc:*Tim Hollebeek<tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>
>> <mailto:tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>; CA/B Forum
>> Server Certificate WG Public Discussion
>> List<servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>> <mailto:servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [Servercert-wg] SC-065: Convert EVGs
>> into RFC 3647 format pre-ballot
>> We MUST comply with RFC 3647 which means that we must
>> include sections that are listed in the outline of
>> 3647, and if we have nothing to say, we leave it
>> empty. We can't "hijack" the numbering just because
>> we have no requirements to describe.
>>
>> That's my interpretation of the RFC 3647 compliance.
>> Perhaps others can chime in and state their opinion.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> DZ.
>>
>> Dec 1, 2023 14:50:23 Inigo Barreira
>> <Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>:
>>
>> Thanks Dimitris.
>> I think that strictly speaking, in RFC 3647 this
>> section is the 4.3.2 Initial Identity Validation
>> and the first bullet is about proving the
>> possession of the private key, but there´s no
>> specific section other than the general approach
>> that we´ve implemented.
>> That said, the current EVG does not include
>> anything about the possession of the private key
>> because that´s covered in the TLS BRs so that
>> section does not exist in the EVGs and therefore
>> I didn´t know how to avoid/implement it.
>> I decided to continue with the normal numbering
>> for an easy checking, so all 11 section is moved
>> into section 3.2 and the rest of the sub-numbers
>> do not change (so 11.1 would be 3.2.1, 11.1.1
>> would be 3.2.1.1, etc.)
>> I understand your point but I think we can´t
>> create a section 3.2.1 for private key possession
>> because there´s no such a text in the EVGs (and
>> don´t think we should add anything new, even a NA
>> for that) and don´t know which other sections we
>> can create under 3.2 that can break the current
>> equivalence, which again was done for an easy
>> comparison.
>> So, what would you suggest to “comply” with that?
>> I don´t have a clear idea.
>> Regards
>> *De:*Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA)
>> <dzacharo at harica.gr>
>> *Enviado el:*jueves, 30 de noviembre de 2023 13:16
>> *Para:*Inigo Barreira
>> <Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>; Tim Hollebeek
>> <tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>; CA/B Forum Server
>> Certificate WG Public Discussion List
>> <servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>> *Asunto:*Re: [Servercert-wg] SC-065: Convert EVGs
>> into RFC 3647 format pre-ballot
>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of
>> the organization. Do not click links or open
>> attachments unless you recognize the sender and
>> know the content is safe.
>>
>> Inigo,
>>
>> As I am working to migrate the EV Guidelines into
>> the EV Code Signing Baseline Requirements I took
>> a look at the mapping you provided for the EV
>> Guidelines and noticed that you are proposing
>> migration of EVG section 11.1 into section 3.2.1.
>> This particular section is labeled "Method to
>> prove possession of private key" in RFC 3647 so I
>> don't think it is appropriate. I think it's best
>> to create new subsections under 3.2.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dimitris.
>>
>> On 8/9/2023 7:54 μ.μ., Inigo Barreira wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>> Attached you´ll find the EVG v1.8.0 with
>> comments in all sections indicating where
>> those sections, and the content, have been
>> moved into the new EVG RFC3647 format. So,
>> with this document, plus the redlined
>> version, I hope you can have now a clearer
>> view of the changes done.
>> Let me know if you need anything else to
>> clarify the new version.
>> Regards
>> *De:*Inigo
>> Barreira<Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>
>> <mailto:Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>
>> *Enviado el:*martes, 29 de agosto de 2023 17:06
>> *Para:*Tim
>> Hollebeek<tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>
>> <mailto:tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>; Dimitris
>> Zacharopoulos (HARICA)<dzacharo at harica.gr>
>> <mailto:dzacharo at harica.gr>; CA/B Forum
>> Server Certificate WG Public Discussion
>> List<servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>> <mailto:servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>> *Asunto:*RE: [Servercert-wg] SC-065: Convert
>> EVGs into RFC 3647 format pre-ballot
>> Thanks Dimitris and Tim.
>> I did something of that internally but didn´t
>> reflect on the document, so will try to
>> reproduce to have it clearer.
>> OTOH, and as indicated in the PR, the whole
>> section 11 has been placed in section 3.2
>> keeping the rest of the numbering. So, for
>> example:
>> EVG EVG3647
>> 11.1 3.2.1
>> 11.1.1 3.2.1.1
>> 11.1.2 3.2.1.2
>> 11.1.3 3.2.1.3
>> 11.2 3.2.2
>> 11.2.1 3.2.2.1
>> ….. ….
>> 11.13 3.2.13
>> 11.14 3.2.14
>> 11.14.1 3.2.14.1
>> 11.14.2 3.2.14.2
>> 11.14.3 3.2.14.3
>> Hope this can clarify the main difficult that
>> I found in the document, where to place it
>> and how.
>> Regards
>> *De:*Tim Hollebeek <tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>
>> *Enviado el:*martes, 29 de agosto de 2023 16:59
>> *Para:*Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA)
>> <dzacharo at harica.gr>; Inigo Barreira
>> <Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>; CA/B Forum
>> Server Certificate WG Public Discussion List
>> <servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>> *Asunto:*RE: [Servercert-wg] SC-065: Convert
>> EVGs into RFC 3647 format pre-ballot
>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside
>> of the organization. Do not click links or
>> open attachments unless you recognize the
>> sender and know the content is safe.
>> Yes, exactly. I would like to see a list
>> that shows that EVG-classic section 1.4 is
>> now in EVG-3647 section 4.1. Then I can look
>> at where the new text landed, see how the
>> conversion was handled, we can all verify
>> that nothing was lost or left out, etc.
>> Without that, anyone attempting to review the
>> document is forced to recreate the mapping
>> just to figure out where everything went and
>> that nothing was missed or put in the wrong
>> place. Redlines are not sufficient when
>> large amounts of text are moving around to
>> different places.
>> I’m saying this because from my
>> spot-checking, the conversion appears to be
>> pretty good, and I’d like to be able to do a
>> final verification that it’s mostly correct
>> so I can endorse.
>> -Tim
>> *From:*Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA)
>> <dzacharo at harica.gr <mailto:dzacharo at harica.gr>>
>> *Sent:*Tuesday, August 29, 2023 7:58 AM
>> *To:*Inigo Barreira
>> <Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com
>> <mailto:Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>>; CA/B
>> Forum Server Certificate WG Public Discussion
>> List <servercert-wg at cabforum.org
>> <mailto:servercert-wg at cabforum.org>>; Tim
>> Hollebeek <tim.hollebeek at digicert.com
>> <mailto:tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [Servercert-wg] SC-065: Convert
>> EVGs into RFC 3647 format pre-ballot
>>
>> Hi Inigo,
>>
>> You can take some guidance from previous
>> successful efforts to convert existing
>> documents into RFC 3647 format. The latest
>> attempt was in the Code Signing BRs
>> conversion in May 2022. Check out the mapping
>> document and the comments in theballot
>> discussion period
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.com_v3_-5F-5Fhttps-3A_lists.cabforum.org_pipermail_cscwg-2Dpublic_2022-2DMay_000795.html-5F-5F-3B-21-21FJ-2DY8qCqXTj2-21cDhQeVwolbnJ6hdDSRwEKs2w1lDqgYkiUHc4ApuZ3kUIV3BDxbQ0XAAIsJDbSWbqRevehayXBz-5Foc-2DH9s1zZDBLzwUxa3A-24&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=wsg-TdwvnM_b-Pg3U1XTwuszyojufD0lb45hNqvXdBXdCbT5NwVJ3w_4u0QY-JUd&s=TGjiVAjhtCpZQCCjIYU8mS3GeEAe0BeKPM0KSCsbZZU&e=>.
>>
>> For each existing section/paragraph, it would
>> be nice to have a comment describing where
>> that existing language will land in the
>> converted document (destination). This will
>> allow all existing text to be accounted for.
>>
>> During this process, you might encounter
>> duplicate or redundant text which needs to be
>> flagged accordingly. You might also get into
>> some uncertainty as to which RFC3647 section
>> is a best fit for existing text that might
>> require additional discussion.
>>
>> I hope this helps.
>>
>>
>> Dimitris.
>>
>> On 29/8/2023 12:42 μ.μ., Inigo Barreira via
>> Servercert-wg wrote:
>>
>> Hi Tim,
>> See attached redlined and current
>> versions. I just used what Martijn
>> suggested yesterday but let me know if
>> this is what you were looking for.
>> Regards
>> *De:*Tim
>> Hollebeek<tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>
>> <mailto:tim.hollebeek at digicert.com>
>> *Enviado el:*lunes, 28 de agosto de 2023
>> 19:49
>> *Para:*Inigo
>> Barreira<Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>
>> <mailto:Inigo.Barreira at sectigo.com>; CA/B
>> Forum Server Certificate WG Public
>> Discussion
>> List<servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>> <mailto:servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>> *Asunto:*RE: SC-065: Convert EVGs into
>> RFC 3647 format pre-ballot
>> CAUTION: This email originated from
>> outside of the organization. Do not click
>> links or open attachments unless you
>> recognize the sender and know the content
>> is safe.
>> Thanks for doing this Inigo … I know
>> re-organizations like this are a lot of
>> work and fall very much in the category
>> of “important but not fun”. So thanks for
>> taking an initial stab at this.
>> Is there a mapping that shows where all
>> the original text ended up? I think
>> that’s going to be essential for people
>> to be able to review this. I did some
>> spot checking, and your conversion looks
>> pretty good, but I wasn’t able to do a
>> more detailed review without a mapping.
>> -Tim
>> *From:*Servercert-wg
>> <servercert-wg-bounces at cabforum.org
>> <mailto:servercert-wg-bounces at cabforum.org>>*On
>> Behalf Of*Inigo Barreira via Servercert-wg
>> *Sent:*Monday, August 28, 2023 5:20 AM
>> *To:*CA/B Forum Server Certificate WG
>> Public Discussion List
>> <servercert-wg at cabforum.org
>> <mailto:servercert-wg at cabforum.org>>
>> *Subject:*[Servercert-wg] SC-065: Convert
>> EVGs into RFC 3647 format pre-ballot
>> Hello,
>> The current Extended Validation
>> Guidelines (EVGs) are written in a
>> non-standardized format. For many years
>> it has been discussed to convert this
>> document into the RFC 3647 format and
>> follow the standardized model for this
>> type of documents.
>> Given that this has been known for
>> several years, I have prepared the
>> following ballot text, which converts the
>> EVGs into the RFC 3647 format:
>> EVGs based on RFC3647 by barrini · Pull
>> Request #440 · cabforum/servercert
>> (github.com)
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.com_v3_-5F-5Fhttps-3A_url.avanan.click_v2_-5F-5F-5Fhttps-3A_github.com_cabforum_servercert_pull_440-5F-5F-5F.YXAzOmRpZ2ljZXJ0OmE6bzoyOGIxNWVhZGVmZDlkZTM0NjQzZTA3YTlmYTA2MzM5YTo2OmExZWM6NGZmMGEzM2U0ZWZjOTU4MTM1NWRkNjU3ZDE5YjU3Y2YxNzg1NWU0ZTVjYzkzY2NjM2M0MWU5MzEyYzJmZTQ0NzpoOkY-5F-5F-3B-21-21FJ-2DY8qCqXTj2-21cDhQeVwolbnJ6hdDSRwEKs2w1lDqgYkiUHc4ApuZ3kUIV3BDxbQ0XAAIsJDbSWbqRevehayXBz-5Foc-2DH9s1zZDBKpiKVP6w-24&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=wsg-TdwvnM_b-Pg3U1XTwuszyojufD0lb45hNqvXdBXdCbT5NwVJ3w_4u0QY-JUd&s=4LtAX3juZdnfOu4veRi4pBALPtRI-GZYgeAImFWYm9Y&e=>
>> I am currently seeking two endorsers as
>> well as any feedback on the ballot
>> content itself (wording, effective dates,
>> etc.).
>> Thanks,
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Servercert-wg mailing list
>>
>> Servercert-wg at cabforum.org
>> <mailto:Servercert-wg at cabforum.org>
>>
>> https://lists.cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/servercert-wg
>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.com_v3_-5F-5Fhttps-3A_lists.cabforum.org_mailman_listinfo_servercert-2Dwg-5F-5F-3B-21-21FJ-2DY8qCqXTj2-21cDhQeVwolbnJ6hdDSRwEKs2w1lDqgYkiUHc4ApuZ3kUIV3BDxbQ0XAAIsJDbSWbqRevehayXBz-5Foc-2DH9s1zZDBI3Tfxaxw-24&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=wsg-TdwvnM_b-Pg3U1XTwuszyojufD0lb45hNqvXdBXdCbT5NwVJ3w_4u0QY-JUd&s=yeobGHenyzbD__BZjEynW1bSj_O1h07XqBgobkCMO5w&e=>
>>
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