[cabfpub] [EXTERNAL]Re: Draft SMIME Working Group Charter

Tue Feb 5 21:01:44 UTC 2019

While I've yet to see an SDO successfully manage that approach, as you
suggest, one of the benefits of dealing with it at the charter level is
that it helps make sure there is consensus that the core is done, and that
it's an appropriate time to move forward with identity. With an approach as
you've described, there's a risk - one which I've personally seen happen in
a number of WGs - that some members will feel it's time to start working on
the update, while others feel that there's still work to be done to get the
core out. The problem is that this debate - "is it time for Y" - ends up
taking energy and focus away. You often see this in specs that have heavy
involvement in the first 95%, but then drag on for the last 5% as everyone
starts working on the 'new thing'.

A ballot to update the charter addresses that, ensures that folks views are
heard and represented, and quantifiably measures consensus, versus "who's
loudest". It also helps discourage splinter-groups from forming that
decided they want to tackle topic Y, even though it's "not time yet",
because that's what they're interested in; if it's clear their work will
have no place to go, it's much easier to discourage that and focus on the
tough problems at hand with issuance.

On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 3:43 PM Dean Coclin via Public <public at cabforum.org>
wrote:

> There’s no reason why guidelines couldn’t be produced and then other
> sections added in a subsequent release. But why exclude that from the
> scope? That would mean having to go back later and adding it, potentially
> disrupting the work of the group. The group should just agree up front (and
> you can put it in the charter) that the initial release will include X and
> topic Y will be covered in an update.
>
>
>
> *From:* Public <public-bounces at cabforum.org> *On Behalf Of *Wayne Thayer
> via Public
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 29, 2019 4:54 PM
> *To:* CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <public at cabforum.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [cabfpub] [EXTERNAL]Re: Draft SMIME Working Group Charter
>
>
>
> My intention is not to prevent CAs from issuing S/MIME certificates
> containing identity information. It's really what Ryan said and Rufus
> reiterated.
>
>
>
> There is a tremendous amount of work to do and the core of all of it is
> cert profiles and email validation practices. I expect that it will take a
> few years to get the core work published, and the complexity of identity
> validation could easily extend that by a year or more. I am particularly
> concerned (could just be my ignorance) about all the government-issued
> identity certificates that are valid for S/MIME. Our identity validation
> rules will need to support those use cases. Given how long S/MIME standards
> have already waited behind governance reform, I prefer a narrower initial
> scope that produces guidelines faster.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 2:18 PM Buschart, Rufus <
> rufus.buschart at siemens.com> wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
>
>
> I would support the approach of Ryan (if I understood his approach
> correctly): Let’s start with the absolute minimal core and this is the
> validation of the email address and the definition of acceptable practices
> regarding key generation, key distribution and key escrow. I remember some
> discussions from last fall with Wayne about this issue when the new Mozilla
> Root Store Policies were drafted and it turned out that SMIME seems to be
> significantly different to TLS since the business needs are very much
> different. So there will be a lot to do with this issues.
>
>
>
> With best regards,
> Rufus Buschart
>
> Siemens AG
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> *Von:* Public <public-bounces at cabforum.org> *Im Auftrag von *Bruce Morton
> via Public
> *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 29. Januar 2019 21:50
> *An:* Wayne Thayer <wthayer at mozilla.com>; CA/Browser Forum Public
> Discussion List <public at cabforum.org>
> *Betreff:* Re: [cabfpub] [EXTERNAL]Re: Draft SMIME Working Group Charter
>
>
>
> Hi Wayne,
>
>
>
> Can you elaborate on why we should exclude identity validation from the
> initial scope?
>
>
>
> My thinking is that many CAs which are currently issuing S/MIME
> certificates are also including identity. I assume that most use similar
> methods that are defined in the BRs to validate identity. It would seem
> that it should be included in the scope to cover current practice.
>
>
>
> Thanks, Bruce.
>
>
>
> *From:* Public [mailto:public-bounces at cabforum.org
> <public-bounces at cabforum.org>] *On Behalf Of *Wayne Thayer via Public
> *Sent:* January 25, 2019 1:37 PM
> *To:* Ryan Sleevi <sleevi at google.com>; CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion
> List <public at cabforum.org>
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL]Re: [cabfpub] Draft SMIME Working Group Charter
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> I agree that we should exclude identity validation from the initial scope
> of this working group.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 10:04 AM Ryan Sleevi via Public <
> public at cabforum.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Finally, regarding membership criteria, I'm curious whether it's necessary
> to consider WebTrust for CAs / ETSI at all. For work like this, would it
> make sense to merely specify the requirements for a CA as one that is
> trusted for and actively issues S/MIME certificates that are accepted by a
> Certificate Consumer. This seems to be widely inclusive and can be iterated
> upon if/when improved criteria are developed, if appropriate.
>
>
>
> This would allow a CA that is not eligible for full Forum membership to
> join this WG as a full member. How would that work? Would we require such
> an organization to join the Forum as an Interested Party? If the idea is
> that such an organization wouldn't be required to join the Forum, then I
> don't believe that was anticipated or intended in the design of the current
> structure. It's not clear to me that we should permit membership in a CWG
> without Forum membership. For instance, allowing this may create loopholes
> in the IPR obligations that are defined and administered at the Forum level.
>
>
>
> There's also a bootstrapping issue for membership, in that until we know
> who the accepted Certificate Consumers are, no CA can join as a Certificate
> Issuer. I'm curious whether it makes sense to explicitly bootstrap this in
> the charter or how we'd like to tackle this.
>
>
>
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