[cabfpub] Draft Bylaw 5.3 change re creation of Working Groups

[kirk_hall at trendmicro.com]

Responses inline

From: Ryan Sleevi [mailto:sleevi at google.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 11:09 AM
To: Kirk Hall (RD-US)
Cc: CABFPub
Subject: Re: [cabfpub] Draft Bylaw 5.3 change re creation of Working Groups


On Jul 1, 2014 11:02 AM, "kirk_hall at trendmicro.com<mailto:kirk_hall at trendmicro.com>" <kirk_hall at trendmicro.com<mailto:kirk_hall at trendmicro.com>> wrote:
>
> We had a discussion at our last meeting about the possible need to change Bylaws 5.3 in two ways (1) to eliminate the need for a formal Ballot to create a Working Group that may include Forum Members and other Interested Parties from outside the membership, but to allow formation of Working Groups through a simpler method, and (2) to clarify that temporary Member committees can be appointed by the Chair at any time to complete research, analysis, and drafting of proposals for the membership that don’t rise to the level of a Working Group (and to follow our current practices on such matters).  I agreed to present a draft.
>

Why does the Forum need to consider (2) at all? That seems something that can be accomplished without any special action - no need for member committees.

[KH] To clarify that we can continue to have informal drafting committees (as at present) that don’t have to be presented to the list-serv and Forum for discussion first.

I am unsure why (1) is needed as well. Can you point to an example where something was blocked or inhibited based on the present practice?

[KH] Because a full Ballot takes time, and to my recollection we have never actually held a Ballot to establish a Working Group.  Many people at the last Forum meeting felt that it would be an unnecessary waste of time to hold a ballot just to create a working group, when any product and recommendations from the Working Group must come back to the Forum as ballots for public discussion and voting.

On the other hand, its clear that some members in the WG have interests towards expanding the scope and role of the forum from beyond CAs and Browsers, and that's something we have expresses serious concern regarding in the past.

[KH]  We are only talking about getting a WG started.  Any member will continue to have the ability to discuss, oppose, and vote against any product or recommendation from a WG.

Also, if there is serious opposition to creating a WG, I would expect the Chair and Vice-Chair will decide not to proceed.

We have also seen WGs that are effectively the same as existing root program management, such as the Code Signing WG. Several CAs have expressed concerns regarding this WG and its operation, so I think we do have examples of things not working desirably.

[KH] If I understand you correctly, you are talking about the EV Code Signing proposal, correct?  That actually is not coming out of any formal working group.  And again, a WG only drafts analyses and recommendations, which are then subject to full discussion and ballot.

IMO, it would be inappropriate to try to cut off discussion and innovation by denying the creation of a WG before it even starts if the consensus of the group is to give the WG a chance to proceed and put its ideas forward for a vote.

For the sake of the public discussion, could you explain a bit more of the motivations for the draft.

[KH] See second response.  At the last meeting, there was discussion of creating one or more new formal WGs, then realize that under the current Bylaws this would require a separate Ballot, which people thought was a superfluous step and no one wanted to do.  Since I originally drafted the Bylaws and now regretted requiring a Ballot just to create a new WG, I volunteered to draft an amendment.

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> The attached draft amends Bylaw 5.3 to allow Working Groups to be appointed on concurrence of the Chair and Vice Chair together, but only after consultation on the Public list and discussion at at least one meeting or teleconference of the Members.  If there is specific objection by at least five Members, the discussion must continue for at least another 30 days, but at the conclusion the decision of whether or not to create the Working Group is up to the Chair and Vice Chair by joint agreement.  The amendments also clarify that informal temporary committees of Members can continue to be created to work on matters being discussed by the Forum that don’t rise to the level of a Working Group (e.g., ideas for consideration, final ballot language, etc.).
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> See below and attached.
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> I welcome all comments and proposed edits.
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> Kirk R. Hall
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> Operations Director, Trust Services
>
> Trend Micro
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> +1.503.753.3088
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> Bylaw 5.3     Working Groups
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> Members may propose by ballot the appointment of Working Groups open to participation by Members and Interested Parties with details outlining The ballot shall outline the scope of the Working Group’s activities, including deliverables, any limitations, and Working Group expiration date. Upon approval of the Working Group draft proposal by the Chair and Vice Chair, the proposal will be published to the public list for discussion for at least one week, and will be discussed by the Members during at least one teleconference or face to face meeting, or for such longer discussion period as the Chair may determine.  If the Chair and Vice Chair believe there is substantial consensus supporting creation of the Working Group, they may announce its creation with such changes to its scope, deliverables, limitations, and expiration date as they may choose based on the prior proposal discussion.  If five or more Members specifically object to the formation of the proposed Working Group, discussion on the matter will continue for at least one additional 30 day period, after which time the Chair and Vice Chair may create the proposed Working Group in the manner described in the previous sentence, or may choose not to create the proposed Working Group.  If a Working Group is created, the Chair will call for a show of interest in participation by Members, and shall appoint a Working Group Chair from among the interested Members.
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> Upon creation of a Working Group, the Forum will post an invitation to all Interested Parties to participate, and will solicit others with expertise and interest in the Working Group subject matter to become Interested Parties and participate in the Working Group.  With the approval of the Chair, Working Groups may establish separate list-servs, wikis, and web pages for their communications, but all such separate list-servs must be managed in the same fashion as the Public Mail List. Working Groups may meet by teleconference or face-to-face meetings upon approval by the Chair and the Working Group Chair, but the Forum shall not be responsible for the expenses of any such teleconferences or meetings.
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> Working Groups may draft recommendations to be forwarded to the Forum for its consideration, but no recommendations will be considered the product of the Working Group unless approved by two-thirds of all Working Group members who vote on the recommendations. All substantial initial and final drafts of the Working Group product will be posted on the Public Mail List.
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> The Forum shall review the final recommendations from a Working Groups and may approve and implement some or all of the recommendations as appropriate in the Forum’s judgment following the Forum’s regular voting rules. The Forum shall retain the right to amend a Working Group recommendation before approval, but in most cases should first return the proposed amended recommendation to the Working Group for its review and response before voting.
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> The Forum shall not be required to submit any matter to a Working Group, but may itself draft requirements and guidelines without a Working Group in its discretion.
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> This section shall not apply to the creation of informal temporary committees of the Forum Members, which may be appointed by the Chair at any time for purposes of researching, analyzing, and drafting proposals and ballots for presentation to the Forum Members for routine matters which do not rise to the level of a Working Group.
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