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Thank you both. From my standpoint, in this particular example and
Clint's additional context, it could go both ways. At the end of the
day, as long as the language is clear and unambiguous, it can be
placed in any part of the document :) <br>
<br>
In order to maintain strict RFC 2119 conformance, the definition of
the Random Value must include the words MUST/SHALL for the 112 bits
of entropy and similarly in other parts of the document. I don't
think anyone can challenge the existing requirement as written, but
this is a technicality that could be fixed throughout the document
in a clean-up ballot. The expectations/results would be exactly the
same, but the output style will be more compatible with RFC 2119.<br>
<br>
Dimitris.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 28/8/2024 11:57 μ.μ., Tim Hollebeek
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">That’s a
fair point, and thank you for the additional discussion.
There is in fact a large grey area between black and white,
as there usually is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">The reason
this one crossed the line into a normative requirement for
me was largely because it defined a Date of Formation, and
then was talking about how that date should be formatted
(which requires usage and context), which I personally think
is clearly outside the boundaries of what a Date of
Formation *<b>is</b>*.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">The gray
area is exactly where you describe, where there can be
disagreements about what is an essential property of a
thing, and what are requirements around a thing. For
example, if you had written:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Date of
Formation: A ten character string that specifies the date
where a Legal Entity was first recognized by the
jurisdiction in which it was created or formed, in the form
of a </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt">complete
representation of an extended format calendar date
(“YYYY-MM-DD”) in ISO 8601.</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Then that
clearly defines a thing. I don’t like defining it that way,
but it works. We’re now defining a string, and
characterizing its contents independently of any
requirements of how it gets used. The definition is
self-contained and the world is good again. Sort of.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Forward and
up,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">-Tim<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div
style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt">
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
Clint Wilson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:clintw@apple.com"><clintw@apple.com></a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 28, 2024 4:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tim Hollebeek
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tim.hollebeek@digicert.com"><tim.hollebeek@digicert.com></a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> CABforum3 <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:validation@cabforum.org"><validation@cabforum.org></a>;
Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA)
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dzacharo@harica.gr"><dzacharo@harica.gr></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabf_validation] Proposed ballot
on improving Registration Number language in EVGs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is helpful. <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">To be clear, I agree that normative
requirements should be avoided in definitions, however
based on your response to this proposed definition change,
it’s also clear there’s some difference of opinion on what
counts as (or doesn’t) a normative requirement. For
example, what sections of the (T/S/CS)BRs constitute the
body of the document? Is it just Section 1.6 that should
be void of normative requirements? Should normative
requirements be pulled out of Section 1 entirely? Since we
don’t introduce RFC 2119 language until Section 1.6.4,
does that mean all uses of those terms in prior sections
are incorrect in some way? How would such a shift impact
maintainability of the document, for example in a scenario
where a defined term has its requirements pulled into a
separate section, but then a later usage of that term
doesn’t remember to include these “extra” properties of
the term as used in a specific section?<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">When I think of a definition, I
assume two basic components: the term being defined
and the exact meaning of a word, including the
properties, attributes, or characteristics that term
and meaning encompass. For example, I don’t see the
definition of Random Value as containing normative
requirements; rather, it’s describing that in order
for a random value to <i>be</i> a random value, it
needs to exhibit 112 bits of entropy. Is there a
“MUST” implied in the requirement that the Reliable
Method of Communication be verified by the CA? Should
Wildcard Domain Name not specify the unicode character
codes of the defined characters?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">When I think about pulling
normative requirements out of definitions, I’m
thinking more of terms like Request Token (because it
does clearly espouse sets of interacting requirements
and options) and Authorization Domain Name (because
the concept is complex enough to warrant expansion in
the context of its use rather than solely within the
definition). <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My suggestion of including the
format in the definition for Date of Formation was
intended to convey that this formatting is an
intrinsic property of the thing being defined. Moving
that down into the profile section is completely
acceptable to me. The related suggestion that this
property of the defined term is a requirement that <i>can't</i>
be included in a definition has me confused about the
actual expected outcome to <span style="color:black">the
content, organization, and accessibility of the BRs
if that </span>statement is applied at face value.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Clint<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Aug 27, 2024, at 9:58<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM, Tim
Hollebeek <<a
href="mailto:tim.hollebeek@digicert.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">tim.hollebeek@digicert.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">My opinion is
that all requirements need to be stated in
RFC 2119 language and be present in the
body of the document in order to be
treated as normative requirements. That
should be an uncontroversial view. I
suspect our auditor friends have a similar
view. I don’t think it’s a particularly
hard line or strict view, it’s just what’s
necessary to prevent ambiguity as to what
the requirements are.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">I would be fine
with once in the section. Something along
the lines of “The Date of Formation MUST
be formatted according to the complete
representation of an extended format
calendar date in ISO 8601 (i.e.
YYYY-MM-DD; e.g. 0001-01-01).”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">-Tim</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div
style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor blue;border-image: none">
<div>
<div
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
class="apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Clint
Wilson <<a
href="mailto:clintw@apple.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">clintw@apple.com</a>><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday,
August 27, 2024 9:06 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Tim
Hollebeek <<a
href="mailto:tim.hollebeek@digicert.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">tim.hollebeek@digicert.com</a>>;
CABforum3 <<a
href="mailto:validation@cabforum.org" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">validation@cabforum.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Dimitris
Zacharopoulos (HARICA) <<a
href="mailto:dzacharo@harica.gr"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">dzacharo@harica.gr</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[cabf_validation] Proposed ballot on
improving Registration Number
language in EVGs</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Tim,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think including the
format of this specific date type in the
definition is totally reasonable, given
that it’s not applicable to any other
date types and so can very much exist
intrinsically as part of the definition.
That is, I don’t agree with the
seemingly hard line you’re drawing in
your statement — and, even moreso, I
don’t believe such a statement is backed
by consensus within the Forum so I also
don’t want it construed as more than
your opinion, as indeed is my above
statement that it can be part of the
definition.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">All that said, I do
agree putting it in-line in the EVGs
would work just fine too. Are you then
imagining we would repeat this format
requirement alongside each of the four
times the term is used in 7.1.4.2.5 or
just state it once somewhere in that
section? Do you have some example text
you can provide to show what you’re
proposing as an alternative approach?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Clint<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Aug 26,
2024, at 10:32<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM, Tim
Hollebeek via Validation <<a
href="mailto:validation@cabforum.org" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">validation@cabforum.org</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">This
is a requirement, and any
requirements around how dates
should be formatted need to be
stated as such in the
appropriate profile section.
It MUST NOT be stated in the
definition.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">-Tim</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor blue;border-image: none">
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor;border-image: none">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
class="apple-converted-space"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Validation
<<a
href="mailto:validation-bounces@cabforum.org" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">validation-bounces@cabforum.org</a>><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Dimitris Zacharopoulos
(HARICA) via Validation<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, August 23, 2024 2:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>CABforum3 <<a
href="mailto:validation@cabforum.org" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">validation@cabforum.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [cabf_validation] Proposed
ballot on improving
Registration Number
language in EVGs</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
16/8/2024 2:53 π.μ., Clint
Wilson via Validation wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Corey,<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Overall
this seems like a good
improvement to clarity of
the current expectations
related to these sections
of the EVGs, reflecting
the predominant approach
to populating the
subject:serialNumber field
for EV TLS certificates. I
do think it would be
valuable to standardize on
a date format (admittedly
somewhat because it feels
like a missed opportunity
to not do so). What about
something like modifying
the newly added
definition:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">**Date
of Formation**: The date
on which a Legal Entity
is first recognized by
the jurisdiction in
which it was created or
formed. The date is
formatted according to
the complete
representation of an
extended format calendar
date in ISO 8601 (i.e.
YYYY-MM-DD; e.g.
0001-01-01).<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Hi Clint,<br>
<br>
I'm in favor of examples where
they help avoid unintended
mistakes, so I would support
adding something like "e.g.
2000-12-31" to make it
abundantly clear where the
month and day is supposed to
be represented.<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Dimitris.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The
parenthetical is probably
too much, but you get the
idea. And then the three
instances of "in any one
of the common date
formats” could just be
deleted.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Clint<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Aug 9, 2024, at 8:55<span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM, Corey
Bonnell via
Validation<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="mailto:validation@cabforum.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><validation@cabforum.org></a>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Hello,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Some time ago, I presented [1] a ballot
proposal on
improving the
requirements for
the Registration
Number value in
the EVGs. Here
is the current
proposal:<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://github.com/cabforum/servercert/compare/main...CBonnell:servercert:govt-entity-serial-number"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#467886">https://github.com/cabforum/servercert/compare/main...CBonnell:servercert:govt-entity-serial-number</span></a>.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">On the call where the proposal was presented,
there was a
desire to
explore
standardizing
date formats for
the Date of
Formation. Is
this something
that we would
like to see
added to the
ballot? For the
sake of
minimizing scope
of the ballot,
I’m in favor of
moving forward
without such a
requirement, but
will certainly
be happy to
incorporate if
there are strong
feelings that
such a
requirement
should be added
in this ballot.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Corey</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">[1]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://lists.cabforum.org/pipermail/validation/2024-July/001997.html"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:#467886">https://lists.cabforum.org/pipermail/validation/2024-July/001997.html</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
Validation mailing
list<br>
</span><a
href="mailto:Validation@cabforum.org" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#467886">Validation@cabforum.org</span></a><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif"><br>
</span><a
href="https://lists.cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/validation"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#467886">https://lists.cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/validation</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Validation mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a
href="mailto:Validation@cabforum.org" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Validation@cabforum.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a
href="https://lists.cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/validation"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://lists.cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/validation</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
Validation mailing list<br>
<a
href="mailto:Validation@cabforum.org" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Validation@cabforum.org</a><br>
<a
href="https://lists.cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/validation"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://lists.cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/validation</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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