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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:0in;line-height:normal"><b>January 12, 2023 Validation Subcommittee Meeting</b><br>
<br>
Note taker identified. (<b>Michael Slaughter</b> - Amazon) <br>
<br>
<b>Antitrust Statement:</b> Corey Bonnell read the Antitrust Statement<br>
<br>
<b>Attendance:</b> <br>
<b>Aaron Poulsen</b> - (Amazon), <b>Aneta Wojtczak-Iwanicka</b> - (Microsoft), <b>
Ben Wilson</b> - (Mozilla), <b>Clint Wilson</b> - (Apple), <b>Corey Bonnell </b>- (DigiCert),
<b>Dimitris Zacharopoulos</b> - (HARICA), <b>Doug Beattie</b> - (GlobalSign), <b>
Dustin Hollenback</b> - (Microsoft),<b> Enrico Entschew</b> - (D-TRUST), <b>Inigo Barreira
</b>- (Sectigo), <b>Martijn Katerbarg</b> - (Sectigo)<b>, Michelle Coon</b> - (OATI),
<b>Nargis Mannan</b> - (SecureTrust), <b>Pekka Lahtiharju</b> - (Telia Company), <b>
Rebecca Kelle</b>y - (Apple), <b>Rollin Yu </b>- (TrustAsia Technologies, Inc.), <b>
Ryan Dickson</b> - (Google), <b>Tobias Josefowitz</b> - (Opera Software AS), <b>Trevoli Ponds-White</b> - (Amazon),
<b>Wayne Thayer</b> - (Fastly) - <b>Wendy Brown</b> - (FPKI), <b>Paul van Brouwershaven</b> - (Entrust),
<b>Chris Clements</b> - (Google Chrome), <b>Michael Slaughter</b> - (Amazon),<b> Janet Hines
</b>– (VikingCloud)<br>
<br>
<b>Minutes:</b><br>
12/15 VSC minutes (Doug) were approved. <br>
F2F 57 (Day 3) VSC minutes (Chris) were approved.<o:p></o:p></p>
<h3>Meeting Minutes <o:p></o:p></h3>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Certificate Profiles <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="1" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo2">
Pull Request - Integration of SC-56 and SC-56 (<a href="https://github.com/cabforum/servercert/pull/409">https://github.com/cabforum/servercert/pull/409</a>)<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="1" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo3">
Corey proposed taking the language from the two newest profiles and adding it to the cabforum:profiles branch. No objections were raised and the pull request is considered approved. Corey merged the PR after the call.<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo4">
Pull Request - Update policyQualifiers for CA profiles from <code><span style="font-size:10.0pt">NOT_RECOMMENDED</span></code> to a
<code><span style="font-size:10.0pt">MAY</span></code> for CA certificates. (<a href="https://github.com/cabforum/servercert/pull/411">https://github.com/cabforum/servercert/pull/411</a>)<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="1" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo5">
Paul - Last call we agreed that we did not want this change for end-entity certificates but were fine with for CA certificates.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo6">
Corey - I recall that there were some concerns raised that specifying in this matter doesn’t achieve the goal of minimizing chain size which generated some push back.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo7">
Ryan - IIRC both of the proposed changes would add additional overhead for many handshakes and we therefore should leave the language AS-IS i.e (NOT_RECOMMEND)<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo8">
Ben - I agree with Ryan’s recollection. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo9">
Wayne - What I said in the last meeting was that for a TLS connection you are delivering the chain as part of the handshake so there is no reduction of bytes on the wire. IIRC the objection to NOT RECOMMEND is that CAs may interpret that as on the deprecated
path but we have other language that specifically designates something as on the deprecation path so there may not be a conflict.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="6" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo10">
Trev - That was my recollection as well. “Will be deprecated” is separate from “Not recommended”<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo11">
Dimitris - I verified the prior minutes and see that the stances are consistent. <o:p>
</o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="8" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo12">
Ben - I believe there will be some value for the ICA<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="9" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo13">
Dimitris - I would prefer the MAY but acknowledge the additional bytes on the wire.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="10" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo14">
Ryan - I still recommend NOT RECOMMENDED on both places. We have data that indicates that not many people actually look at data on certificates and will probably not use it. Imagine the value that a family member may have by following the policy and then trying
to interpret it.<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="11" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo15">
Trev - I doubt anyone is demanding more things in my chain. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="12" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo16">
Ben - Well I am. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="13" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo17">
Wayne - It’s always a good idea to provide some bread crumbs that explain why a requirement is phrased a certain way since it will always come up.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="14" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo18">
Corey - for the context of this PR, it will maintain the current language. Paul does it make sense to add the additional pointer?
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="15" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo19">
Paul - That doesn’t align with my intent so I do not wish to change the PR. I will retract the PR based on the consensus.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="16" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo20">
Corey - Would anyone like to own the action to add an explanatory note about the wire size.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="17" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo21">
Wayne - I will take that action. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="18" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo22">
Ryan - Are we taking this approach (adding explanatory guidance) in any other areas? I want<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="19" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo23">
Corey - Yes in some areas there is similar guidance. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="20" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo24">
Dimitris - I would just recommend that if there is a controversial topic that doesn’t have unanimous agreement then we should add explanatory context in the actual doc.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="21" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo25">
Coery - I agree that having the design rationale in the doc is a good idea. <o:p>
</o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="1" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="22" type="i">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo26">
Ben - We can add it in the far right column. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Topic 2: Ordering of the subject DN fields<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="1" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo27">
Doug - We have ordered fields and unordered fields and the expectations between the two groups is unclear.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo28">
Corey - My understanding is that the ordering is only with regard to the specific attributes that are designated as “Ordered”. For example, if you have an EV cert with business code (which is not ordered) it can be interleaved with the ordered field. That was
my intent. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="3" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo29">
Doug - If we are trying to follow an x500 ordering scheme then inserting random fields in the middle of the ordered list might cause problems. Does it make sense to have ordering in that case? If everyone agrees that this a good way to do then I will disagree
and commit. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="4" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo30">
Corey - Your understanding of 5280 aligns with mine that it doesn’t define any ordering constraints. Some attributes follow hierarchical (Country → State). In certain regions the postal code might cover multiple localities. In my mind it makes sense for certain
attributes to follow certain other attributes. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="5" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo31">
Aneta - Does this mean that the Subject will start with Country Name for all OV certs or can it start with commonName and go the other direction?<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="6" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo32">
Corey - Based on the table, they must go in the top-down specified order (country name → commonName).
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="7" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo33">
Aneta - Ok.- Subject must start with country name. If you go to 7.1.2.7.4 . The name of the table is incorrect and it doesn’t say that the order must be kept. It should be consistent with the other section.
<code><span style="font-size:10.0pt">domainComponent</span></code> is in different places in 7.1.2.7.4 vs 7.1.4.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="8" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo34">
Clint - What we have now makes sense but it’s worth calling out that some certificate parsers will reverse the ordering.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="9" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo35">
Corey - That’s right the LDAP string representation will reverse the ordering recorded in the certificate. If there are no more comments then it sounds like we are good with the status quo. Would anyone like to create a PR to have the issues addressed?<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="10" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo36">
Aneta - I can work on that PR. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="11" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo37">
Ryan - I am hopeful that at this point the immediate group can get pens down and balloted. It’s been in discussion for multiple years now. Are there any objections to getting to pens down? Would anyone be open to endorsing the ballot once we get it more firm.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="12" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo38">
Clint - I second I am happy to endorse. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="13" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo39">
Dimitris - I am happy to endorse. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="14" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo40">
Ryan - Next steps; Wayne and Aneta will work on the remaining PRs, those will be discussed at the next Validation Sub Committee which can then be added to a ballot proposal.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="15" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo41">
Would everyone feel comfortable pushing the effective date back to July 15th which was one of the dates that Tim called out for policy changes. I would own submitting the PR. Is that enough time?
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="16" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo42">
Dimitris - I would prefer to push the effective date away from summer due to many folks being away on vacation.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="17" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo43">
Ryan - Would love to see it be April but it may not be reasonable so I will make a PR to make September 15th the effective date.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="18" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo44">
Ben - I support the September date. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="19" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo45">
Wayne - I will also support the September date. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="20" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo46">
Clint - I also support September. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="21" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo47">
Corey - Sounds like the consensus is for September. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="22" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo48">
Ryan - Next steps - We have 3 PRs to discuss at the next meeting and have 2 endorsers so we’re ready to take flight.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="2" type="1">
<ol start="23" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo49">
Corey - Agreed with the next steps<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="3" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Status check on Global Sign the LEI ballot<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<ol start="3" type="1">
<ol start="1" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo50">
Doug - Eva is busy this week so she is not on the call and no status update. <o:p>
</o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="3" type="1">
<ol start="2" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo51">
Dimitris - There has not been any progress made on that. <o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start="4" type="1">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
Resuming the analysis on the terms Applicant and Applicant representatives<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<ol start="4" type="1">
<ol start="1" type="a">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo52">
<b>Not covered</b><o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Michael<o:p></o:p></p>
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