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<p><font face="Calibri">But here we are developing an /industry/
standard that - as such - need not be eIDAS-compliant. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri">Besides, Article 5 (2) of eIDAS refers to
transactions, not certificates. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri">In fact, eIDAS mention pseudonyms only with
reference to /qualified/ electronic signature certificates,
which are not the subject of </font><font face="Calibri">the </font><font
face="Calibri"><font face="Calibri">SMCWG .</font></font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri">Some CA may also want to issue S/MIME
certificates containing pseudonyms, and be succesfully audited
against eIDAS and the relevant ETSI norms, but in such a case
they should not declare a policy referring to the CABF
requirements we are developing here.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri">Adriano</font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri"></font><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Il 10/03/2022 08:05, Wiedenhorst,
Matthias via Smcwg-public ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0100017f72a57474-010447f2-1571-417f-8796-21ea1010a9dd-000000@email.amazonses.com">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi
all!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-GB">Article 5 (2) eIDAS reads:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-GB">“Without prejudice to the legal effect given
to pseudonyms under national law, the use of pseudonyms in
electronic transactions shall not be prohibited.”<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-GB">I am not a lawyer, but to me it sounds as if
prohibiting pseudonyms could cause problems within the EU.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-GB">Legitimate use cases that I have heard of from
different CAs are for example persons from the “law
enforcement area” that are in danger to be threatened or
even attacked in their private live when their full real
name is known.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-GB">As already pointed out, a pseudonym certificate
is not an anonymous certificate, but only the CA is able to
reveal identity. Identification of the person has to be
performed identically as if a certificate without pseudonym
would be issued.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-GB">Best regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-GB">Matthias<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"
lang="EN-GB"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Von:</b> Smcwg-public
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:smcwg-public-bounces@cabforum.org"><smcwg-public-bounces@cabforum.org></a>
<b>Im Auftrag von </b>Stephen Davidson via Smcwg-public<br>
<b>Gesendet:</b> Mittwoch, 9. März 2022 15:34<br>
<b>An:</b> Pedro FUENTES <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:pfuentes@WISEKEY.COM"><pfuentes@WISEKEY.COM></a>;
SMIME Certificate Working Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:smcwg-public@cabforum.org"><smcwg-public@cabforum.org></a>; Dimitris Zacharopoulos
(HARICA) <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dzacharo@harica.gr"><dzacharo@harica.gr></a><br>
<b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Smcwg-public] [EXTERNAL]-Re: Common
Name contents<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In general, the CA is
supposed to validate the true identity of a holder behind a
subject:pseudonym. This is different from an anonymous
cert.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The difficulty we face
is that, having chosen to require Subject identity
information to be verified, it would be inconsistent to
allow the freeform use of pseudonyms.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">As far as I know, only
Germany provides the options for alternative “religious
names or pseudonyms” on their national ID:
<a
href="https://www.consilium.europa.eu/prado/en/DEU-BO-02004/image-344552.html"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/prado/en/DEU-BO-02004/image-344552.html</a>
... So that significantly narrows the options for verifying
pseudonyms!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">My personal belief is
that we should drop the use of pseudonyms from this draft.
I hope that SMCWG members that disagree with this will speak
up.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">The Mailbox-validated
(MV) profiles are probably more appropriate for users not
wishing “real name” identity to be in their certs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Regards, Stephen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
lang="EN-US"> Smcwg-public <<a
href="mailto:smcwg-public-bounces@cabforum.org"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">smcwg-public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Pedro FUENTES via Smcwg-public<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 7, 2022 2:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA) <<a
href="mailto:dzacharo@harica.gr"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">dzacharo@harica.gr</a>>;
SMIME Certificate Working Group <<a
href="mailto:smcwg-public@cabforum.org"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">smcwg-public@cabforum.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Smcwg-public] [EXTERNAL]-Re: Common
Name contents<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Could it be just
acceptable that a pseudonym is freely chosen by a
subscriber?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">In other words… could
it be acceptable to have names in the subjectName which
don’t require validation?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">We don’t currently use
such attributes, but I wonder if this could be good to
reserve certain flexibility for use cases where
anonymization is desired. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Pedro<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
lang="EN-US">Le 7 mars 2022 à 18:58, Dimitris
Zacharopoulos (HARICA) via Smcwg-public <<a
href="mailto:smcwg-public@cabforum.org"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">smcwg-public@cabforum.org</a>>
a écrit :<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
lang="EN-US"> Unless CAs have some clear rules on how
to validate pseudonyms, I also believe we should exclude
this attribute from the allowed profiles which makes
this attribute practically not allowed. We must be
explicit about this because other attributes may be
allowed.<br>
<br>
Dimitris.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">On 7/3/2022 9:41
π.μ., Adriano Santoni via Smcwg-public wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p><span lang="EN-US">We do not support pseudonyms, and do
not think there is a need for them.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">...we could even
chose to exclude this attribute from the allowed
profiles<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Yes, that's what we suggest to do:
exclude this attribute from the allowed profiles.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US">Adriano<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Il 02/03/2022
18:43, Stephen Davidson via Smcwg-public ha scritto:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hi Doug:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">1. Further to
our discussion today, the language in ETSI EN 319
412-2 probably has the clearest definition:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
lang="EN-US">The commonName attribute value shall
contain a name of the subject. This may be in the
subject's preferred presentation format, or a format
preferred by the CA, or some other format.
Pseudonyms, nicknames, and names with spelling other
than defined by the registered name may be used.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
lang="EN-US">NOTE 1: The commonName attribute has a
usage purpose that is different from the required
choice of pseudonym or givenName/surname. commonName
is used for user friendly representation of the
person's name, whereas givenName/surname is used
where more formal representation or verification of
specific identity of the user is required. To
maximize interoperability both are considered
necessary.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">It does not give
guidance on the scope for “user friendly
representation of the person's name” and as far as I
can tell, most TSPs apply either (givenName and
surname) or pseudonym in that field.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Notwithstanding
this, our previous discussions had been for the
commonName to include verified information for the
purposes of the S/MIME BR, leading to the options
described
<a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_cabforum_smime_blob_preSBR_SBR.md-2371422-2Dsubject-2Ddistinguished-2Dname-2Dfields&d=DwMDaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=NCuXVva5JxiZue0JFxEbVTEZS67ltuKPjLakEuBlN-Q&s=SikwTyV2nbwaM8CjAAm0ewzVcCUuXH_rrJl0zlNlYwQ&e="
moz-do-not-send="true">
here</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span lang="EN-US">We are
interested in hearing perspectives from both
Certificate Issuers and Certificate Issuers on
this point.</span></u></b><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">2. The handling
of subject:pseudonym is still an unresolved issue –
and so text still needs to be tightened up. We are
working from the basis that Subject information must
be verified, so this would also apply to pseudonym
(ie not a self reported name). Pseudonym identity
is, by definition, linked to the person’s real
identity<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">ETSI TS 199 461
tries to deal with it by saying:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
lang="EN-US">Although the outcome of the identity
proofing can be a pseudonym identity, identity
proofing requires identification of the real
identity of the person as determined by applicable
identity documents, official registers or other
authoritative sources.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span
lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">But as far as I
can tell, only Germany provides pseudonym as an
information attribute on official identity
documents. Given the lack of clarity, we could even
chose to exclude this attribute from the allowed
profiles.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span lang="EN-US">We’d be
interested to hear from Certificate Issuers what
their practices are using the pseudonym in
regulated certificate types.</span></u></b><span
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Best, Stephen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Stephen Davidson
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">DigiCert
Governance, Risk & Compliance<br>
<a href="mailto:stephen.davidson@digicert.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">stephen.davidson@digicert.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">O 1.441.278.2803
| M 1.441.505.4908<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><code><span
style="font-size:10.0pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></code><span
lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
lang="EN-US"> Doug Beattie
<a href="mailto:doug.beattie@globalsign.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><doug.beattie@globalsign.com></a>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 2, 2022 1:10 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stephen Davidson <a
href="mailto:Stephen.Davidson@digicert.com"
moz-do-not-send="true"><Stephen.Davidson@digicert.com></a>;
SMIME Certificate Working Group
<a href="mailto:smcwg-public@cabforum.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><smcwg-public@cabforum.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Common Name contents<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Hey Stephen,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">During the call
today it was mentioned that all of the subject info
pulled from the certificates and displayed via GUI
needs to be validated (no more OU logic). I went
back and looked at the options for Sponsor validated
certs and it permits the Pseudonym to be present in
the CN. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">I went to check
the rules for validation and found this:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">f. <strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Certificate Field:</span></strong>
</span><code><span style="font-size:10.0pt"
lang="EN-US">subject:pseudonym</span></code><span
lang="EN-US"> (2.5.4.65)<br>
<strong><span
style="font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Contents:</span></strong>
The pseudonym attribute MUST NOT be present if the
givenName and/or surname attribute are present. If
present, the
</span><code><span style="font-size:10.0pt"
lang="EN-US">subject:pseudonym</span></code><span
lang="EN-US"> field field MUST be verified according
to
<a
href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_cabforum_smime_blob_preSBR_SBR.md-23323-2Dauthentication-2Dof-2Dindividual-2Didentity&d=DwMDaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=NCuXVva5JxiZue0JFxEbVTEZS67ltuKPjLakEuBlN-Q&s=nliz6I7gIbr8WMy3LZQ94CqxFqzTqVpunO8t0YqxuCo&e="
moz-do-not-send="true">
Section 3.2.3</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">But I could not
find any references to this field in that section,
or section 3.2.4 that indicates how this is to be
validated. Are there CA validation rules for this,
or can any value be supplied?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US">Doug<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-US">Smcwg-public mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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<pre><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.cabforum.org_mailman_listinfo_smcwg-2Dpublic&d=DwMDaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=NCuXVva5JxiZue0JFxEbVTEZS67ltuKPjLakEuBlN-Q&s=M6K8kM_fZBp_w11MPEbpQzwTErczaQV8-qlOhtEiIMg&e=" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/smcwg-public</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<pre><span lang="EN-US">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-US">Smcwg-public mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-US"><a href="mailto:Smcwg-public@cabforum.org" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Smcwg-public@cabforum.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-US"><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.cabforum.org_mailman_listinfo_smcwg-2Dpublic&d=DwMDaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=NCuXVva5JxiZue0JFxEbVTEZS67ltuKPjLakEuBlN-Q&s=M6K8kM_fZBp_w11MPEbpQzwTErczaQV8-qlOhtEiIMg&e=" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/smcwg-public</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="mailto:Smcwg-public@cabforum.org"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">Smcwg-public@cabforum.org</a><br>
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href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.cabforum.org_mailman_listinfo_smcwg-2Dpublic&d=DwICAg&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=-bX5hBm1IdRDykQ-dBR8tsFRCM4v1VXUyG7RZa2WqPY&m=NCuXVva5JxiZue0JFxEbVTEZS67ltuKPjLakEuBlN-Q&s=M6K8kM_fZBp_w11MPEbpQzwTErczaQV8-qlOhtEiIMg&e="
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Smcwg-public mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Smcwg-public@cabforum.org">Smcwg-public@cabforum.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/smcwg-public">https://lists.cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/smcwg-public</a>
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