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> * Aaron Gable commented in the PR with a suggestion that we require CAs to reject any key found in Hanno Bock's repository at https://github.com/badkeys/debianopenssl. This includes RSA 1024/2048/3072/4096 and EC P256/P384 keys.</div>
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Some of the EC key files in Hanno's repository have ASN.1 encoding issues (see <a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/dev-security-policy@mozilla.org/msg00911.html" id="OWAb4d7fc64-d681-b02c-8203-ddb986be2cd9" class="OWAAutoLink" data-loopstyle="linkonly">
https://www.mail-archive.com/dev-security-policy@mozilla.org/msg00911.html</a>); whereas the equivalent files in
<a href="https://github.com/CVE-2008-0166/private_keys" id="OWAe97607e4-a8ff-0c2a-59f2-b69e4c16f64f" class="OWAAutoLink" data-loopstyle="linkonly">
https://github.com/CVE-2008-0166/private_keys</a> are correctly encoded.</div>
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> * Roman Fischer suggested that we limit the requirement to check Debian weak keys only with sizes up to RSA 4096 under the logic that no one would “accidentally” create an 8192 bit RSA key on a system vulnerable to Debian Weak keys</div>
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FWIW, <a href="https://github.com/CVE-2008-0166/private_keys">https://github.com/CVE-2008-0166/private_keys</a> already has all of the possible 8192-bit RSA Debian weak keys.</div>
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<b>From:</b> Servercert-wg <servercert-wg-bounces@cabforum.org> on behalf of Wayne Thayer via Servercert-wg <servercert-wg@cabforum.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 05 April 2024 23:47<br>
<b>To:</b> CA/B Forum Server Certificate WG Public Discussion List <servercert-wg@cabforum.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Servercert-wg] Compromised/Weak Keys Ballot Proposal</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"> </div>
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<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">CAUTION:</span><span style="color: black;"> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.</span></div>
<br>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Two new alternatives have been proposed in addition to the one I proposed below:</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="direction: ltr;">* Aaron Gable commented in the PR with a suggestion that we require CAs to reject any key found in Hanno Bock's repository at
<a href="https://github.com/badkeys/debianopenssl" id="OWA31e91472-a12a-4afb-abec-4639cc182738" class="OWAAutoLink" shash="Jw3jvLKR+GL5PuVQ1FDbf4ONJb7wYXKNZyk+4hpYxvXoykBjxUiwgqy8KriCYQQ+tMuY86ECM+TeIypTp4Op7Ti///utIHzlgMyFJj69Zj+lRdx/dxeIhNkFly7JRo+ynaL25ztRPl4/VVUbF9Eg21ymBA696j3zYejVHSmofBo=" originalsrc="https://github.com/badkeys/debianopenssl" data-auth="Verified" data-loopstyle="linkonly">
https://github.com/badkeys/debianopenssl</a>. This includes RSA 1024/2048/3072/4096 and EC P256/P384 keys. We might prefer to reference a clone in the CAB Forum GitHub org (or some other source of the actual generated weak keys) but that's a detail we can work
out if others like this approach.</div>
<div class="elementToProof" style="direction: ltr;">* Roman Fischer suggested that we limit the requirement to check Debian weak keys only with sizes up to RSA 4096 under the logic that no one would “accidentally” create an 8192 bit RSA key on a system vulnerable
to Debian Weak keys</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Each of these methods has the benefit of adding clarity to the Debian requirement rather than just maintaining the existing language, but they also [arguably] allow CAs to issue certs containing abnormally sized Debian weak keys.</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">I would like to hear from other members (especially Apple) if you prefer or object to either of these alternatives?</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Thanks,</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Wayne</div>
<br>
<div style="direction: ltr;">On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 4:13 PM Wayne Thayer via Servercert-wg <<a href="mailto:servercert-wg@cabforum.org" id="OWA334195ed-dd20-b315-827a-2b7b38982b04" class="OWAAutoLink" data-loopstyle="linkonly">servercert-wg@cabforum.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<div style="direction: ltr;">There was further discussion of this ballot proposal on today's teleconference. It was suggested that rather than omitting any reference to Debian weak keys, the ballot should retain the current language. Unfortunately, the ballot
restructures the language in such a way that this is challenging. My new proposal is that TLS BR Section 6.1.1.3(5) be updated to read as follows (<a href="https://github.com/wthayer/servercert/pull/1/files" id="OWA1c23a3b4-e06e-a793-b7a7-95178d10cc29" class="OWAAutoLink" shash="WXzJfxQmSmsxafC652Q2+nKdxdPLdsjIxsvo/iXItEqH+pImo+LugvvDQ33DOSe1Cp40JUzwddf1Fer8dOyH7hEkTd31q++nM9CUWszzDY1a2ObhKuVXUfww1aPjHda4P7l1sUgSqK4n2jW3Rdw7C6iHePda7+lO/cByISMU2TM=" originalsrc="https://github.com/wthayer/servercert/pull/1/files" data-auth="Verified" data-loopstyle="linkonly">https://github.com/wthayer/servercert/pull/1/files</a>):</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">=====</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">5. The Public Key corresponds to an industry-demonstrated weak Private Key. For requests submitted on or after November 15, 2024, at least the following precautions SHALL be implemented:<br>
1. The CA SHALL reject Debian weak keys (<a href="https://wiki.debian.org/SSLkeys" id="OWA80402dc8-08fa-78f9-a593-e1bd5d166294" class="OWAAutoLink" shash="rOlO1So07zcxrYAqP9NmSnwL2WX6EIpzZaAFan7zmzsrGqfm9Xocv8qtMgLDpasL3CnUKZusGaheYQc0LtR7/XSvgT6GT40y8uH+9ZfjoK5zRzRoSgeGKYIaNjH6lEDYQCYnjy5ytm/z+/Gd+O/76/b3JavGwaBqRKUi4HYY44M=" originalsrc="https://wiki.debian.org/SSLkeys" data-auth="Verified" data-loopstyle="linkonly">https://wiki.debian.org/SSLkeys</a>).<br>
2. In the case of ROCA vulnerability, the CA SHALL reject keys identified by the tools available at
<a href="https://github.com/crocs-muni/roca" id="OWA024eb113-e603-4a5e-2f07-c1357a15f321" class="OWAAutoLink" shash="wQIAasbil2YAd1S6rQ1vG/zxPK3qWdD3l3I6O2CP7gZfW0H2i7DyM/zW91mTcekuikMLujNHpXK18LIPvVgjoG2kFtKILOwnDyQtJEbwJjEPMlObSaK120GD76f9oSXs5Qcrbr/M9QXH0M+9EI8lleYxCZO6YYoW8BBCi+HdCG0=" originalsrc="https://github.com/crocs-muni/roca" data-auth="Verified" data-loopstyle="linkonly">
https://github.com/crocs-muni/roca</a> or equivalent.<br>
3. In the case of Close Primes vulnerability (<a href="https://fermatattack.secvuln.info/" id="OWAc9a62049-420c-9085-6ef3-88c75f872995" class="OWAAutoLink" shash="zVmv2qw10APw1kzQeUXHFbMK0kLEdeyUeN2hkFtJA4EIvZmQKkit/K5/ZuCCTrwadXWL0T02yc6lU2wHuQRtzkax6Lj08NJH1427Yu40azJhWALjAWdHxrH0KV/6Nsxq/7403MlOnPUByTrnBU1ZYIWqEtoGpmaRD4EN86rD5ys=" originalsrc="https://fermatattack.secvuln.info/" data-auth="Verified" data-loopstyle="linkonly">https://fermatattack.secvuln.info/</a>),
the CA SHALL reject weak keys which can be factored within 100 rounds using Fermat’s factorization method. <br>
<br>
Suggested tools for checking for weak keys can be found here: <a href="https://cabforum.org/resources/tools/" id="OWA94d6f8b9-6f2d-1669-37d5-4a25ec8ab446" class="OWAAutoLink" shash="KAry0d2cq2wH6KCXvyl45a6nD/KeCy4l5uTEYoSZjLp8syFhIDEhGrPe0hXs7gJAT2YTEgQwKknNnmTXDbWG/ZqcLB3PeeMi6idtav2UD4r4TlsKpftTcrwFUHchDALN3Jbp3PWHIT7xvu+ug/awNGnegnfMCCpH7C9M/4MB50Q=" originalsrc="https://cabforum.org/resources/tools/" data-auth="Verified" data-loopstyle="linkonly">
https://cabforum.org/resources/tools/</a></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">=====</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">I would greatly appreciate feedback from any member that finds this language unacceptable, or that has suggestions to improve it.</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Thanks,</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Wayne</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<br>
<div style="direction: ltr;">On Fri, Mar 15, 2024 at 11:19 AM Wayne Thayer via Servercert-wg <<a href="mailto:servercert-wg@cabforum.org" id="OWA83ca926e-2c8b-de07-8f5b-04852d47f014" class="OWAAutoLink" data-loopstyle="linkonly">servercert-wg@cabforum.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<div style="direction: ltr;">On yesterday's SCWG teleconference, Mads suggested that a way forward would be to leave the existing requirements in place for Debian weak keys. I've interpreted that to mean that we would just remove references to Debian, resulting
in this: <a href="https://github.com/wthayer/servercert/pull/1/files" id="OWAb2e1af5a-979b-ab2d-eba8-92278b28d928" class="OWAAutoLink" shash="fgQBAbnA4zWLRW2COUbZLtPNJOdI35qwd+GTuu3GN1v4tWa9s31fOV+Boos/mtG27San8eRQxUMMV3QwwJPuehj3S/TjvW9jcFoshN7XYK0qYyiJUU5sg9uXq9a+DpP5rBoJC9igNu7AtfYwz3tzkjEF311T4vO04t34FYJ9MPQ=" originalsrc="https://github.com/wthayer/servercert/pull/1/files" data-auth="Verified" data-loopstyle="linkonly">
https://github.com/wthayer/servercert/pull/1/files</a></div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">I'm not satisfied by this approach because it doesn't achieve the clarity intended to result from the original weak keys ballot and will seemingly result in CAs continuing to have varying interpretations of the specific requirements
for rejecting Debian weak keys, but perhaps this is the best we can all agree to.</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">What do others think? Should we proceed with this approach?</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Thanks,</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Wayne</div>
<br>
<div style="direction: ltr;">On Sat, Mar 9, 2024 at 9:15 AM Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA) via Servercert-wg <<a href="mailto:servercert-wg@cabforum.org" id="OWAfd021ab2-cc72-6bc5-6f21-dd5c4b0a40be" class="OWAAutoLink" data-loopstyle="linkonly">servercert-wg@cabforum.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<div>FWIW, I think in the recent years, it was mostly security researchers that attempted to request certificates with Debian weak keys to test if a CA was properly blocking them.<br>
<br>
If an Applicant uses an outdated OS that generates weak keys, imagine the actual web server or other software that runs on that server, putting Relying Parties at risk. CAs don't have control over that but they could have control over a common set of weak keys
using common parameters/algorithms which could be enforced by all CAs.<br>
<br>
Dimitris.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>On 9/3/2024 12:05 π.μ., Wayne Thayer via Servercert-wg wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Hi Clint,</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, it leads me to the conclusion that there is not a path forward and we're stuck with the status quo. Having said that, I'll reply to a few of your points below and encourage others to do
the same if there is a desire to move forward with an update to our weak keys requirements.</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 12:59 AM Clint Wilson <<a href="mailto:clintw@apple.com" id="OWAf8fe7bb6-140e-b38f-a5d2-94204e7cd2a0" class="OWAAutoLink" data-loopstyle="linkonly">clintw@apple.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<div style="direction: ltr;">Hi Wayne,</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Thank you for carrying this work item forward. I have a few concerns regarding the proposed removal of Debian weak key checking, outlined below.</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">I don’t believe there has been sufficient explanation or data presented to justify the removal of the requirement to check for Debian weak keys. It seems to me there are feasible methods for CAs to continue performing this check.
Similar to what Martijn has pointed out, the reasoning provided is lacking (hasty generalization, fallacy of composition, etc.).</div>
</blockquote>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">The argument that I find compelling is that any system capable of generating a Debian weak key in 2024 is also riddled with a decade of vulnerabilities, so preventing the use of said weak key in a certificate is security theater.
In what scenario do you envision the rejection of a Debian weak key having a meaningful impact on the security of a service that relies on it? It's just not obvious to me that these checks continue to provide any practical value at this point in time.</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"> </div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<div style="direction: ltr;">I don’t believe a compromise where Debian weak keys only need be checked for specific key sizes addresses the core issue, unless tied together with a restriction from accepting key sizes which are not included in such a list (which
I do see as reasonable and something I’m under the impression is already being done by some CAs).</div>
</blockquote>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">My understanding is that the objections some CAs had to the original ballot was the requirement to maintain a sizable database of Debian weak keys for every key size they support. Limiting the requirement to the most popular key
sizes would resolve that issue and be more inline with my understanding of some current practices. This approach would also greatly reduce the threat of the accidental use of a Debian weak key.</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"> </div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<div style="direction: ltr;">The removal of this check seems to shift a burden currently placed on CAs to a risk (long assumed resolved) for Relying Parties and Subscribers. From my reading of the ballot, the requirement that a CA revoke Certificates with Debian
weak keys remains in effect, serving only to remove the pre-issuance “blocking” requirement, but retaining an expectation that certificates are checked post-issuance based on the CA’s awareness of this method of compromising a Private Key; this generally seems
a significantly worse experience for Subscribers. Have I missed something regarding the intent of the changes in this regard?</div>
</blockquote>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">This is a great point. It makes no sense to allow a CA to issue a cert that is then immediately subject to a revocation requirement. I am open to either exempting Debian weak keys from BR 4.9.1.1(4) or for CAs to be required to
revoke a certificate containing a Debian weak key only if they are "made aware" using the mechanism specified in 4.9.3.</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Thanks,</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Wayne</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);">
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">There have been incidents involving certificates issued to Debian weak keys in recent years; some CAs have indicated that they don’t receive Debian weak keys in requests, but evidence exists to the contrary for the ecosystem as
a whole.</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">Thank you!</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;">-Clint</div>
<div style="direction: ltr;"><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
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