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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Significantly better, thank you.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>-Tim<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Aaron Gable <aaron@letsencrypt.org> <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 8, 2024 1:42 PM<br><b>To:</b> Tim Hollebeek <tim.hollebeek@digicert.com><br><b>Cc:</b> CA/B Forum Server Certificate WG Public Discussion List <servercert-wg@cabforum.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Servercert-wg] Seeking endorsers: Ballot SC-XX: Measure all hours and days to the second<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>I've simplified the phrasing further, it feels much less legalese now. Let me know what you think!<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks again,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Aaron<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 2:29 PM Tim Hollebeek <<a href="mailto:tim.hollebeek@digicert.com">tim.hollebeek@digicert.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Yes, there’s a fair amount of legal puffery in the existing BRs (and especially the EVGs) … it’s one of the common causes of lack of clarity, rather than clarity. I’d prefer to see it slowly removed over time and replaced with clear, straight-forward language that’s easy for non-native speakers to read and comply with. Obviously much easier said than done, though.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>That’s one of the dangers of this sort of exercise: we tend to add words and nuance as if it’s making things better … but one thing I’ve slowly learned over the years is that more words do not necessarily lead to increased clarity.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-Tim<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> Aaron Gable <<a href="mailto:aaron@letsencrypt.org" target="_blank">aaron@letsencrypt.org</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 4, 2024 5:17 PM<br><b>To:</b> Tim Hollebeek <<a href="mailto:tim.hollebeek@digicert.com" target="_blank">tim.hollebeek@digicert.com</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> CA/B Forum Server Certificate WG Public Discussion List <<a href="mailto:servercert-wg@cabforum.org" target="_blank">servercert-wg@cabforum.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Servercert-wg] Seeking endorsers: Ballot SC-XX: Measure all hours and days to the second<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Fair enough! I was aiming for the same style of "reasonable person" as is often found in legal texts, since I had some concern that someone might try to use this phrasing to interpret "11 months" as "11 x 28 = 308 days", which would be a potential minimum value but not one that a reasonable person would assert. I welcome additional help refining this phrasing.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Aaron<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 12:59 PM Tim Hollebeek <<a href="mailto:tim.hollebeek@digicert.com" target="_blank">tim.hollebeek@digicert.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>You don’t want to call out “reasonableness” unless you’re actually going to let people use their discretion.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The first new sentence, as I read it, could be rewritten as: “All statements of time periods SHALL be taken to mean exactly that time period, and not one microsecond more.”<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>That is very clear, but it is not the only reasonable interpretation. Claiming the “minimum” interpretation is the only “reasonable” one is a bit more opinionated and pejorative than is necessary. It also doesn’t add anything.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-Tim<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> Servercert-wg <<a href="mailto:servercert-wg-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank">servercert-wg-bounces@cabforum.org</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Aaron Gable via Servercert-wg<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 4, 2024 1:06 PM<br><b>To:</b> CA/B Forum Server Certificate WG Public Discussion List <<a href="mailto:servercert-wg@cabforum.org" target="_blank">servercert-wg@cabforum.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Servercert-wg] Seeking endorsers: Ballot SC-XX: Measure all hours and days to the second<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks for the great discussion in the ServerCert WG call this morning!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I have updated this draft ballot to attempt to use Clint's language around interpreting time periods to be their minimum value. Please take a look!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a href="https://url.avanan.click/v2/___https:/github.com/cabforum/servercert/pull/470/files___.YXAzOmRpZ2ljZXJ0OmE6bzoyMjY5YTgxZDcxNTE0ZGU4YjBkZjc5ODk0ZGZiYWZjMzo2OjY5ZjY6M2RkYjVhYjI4NTY0ZTJkOTJjZGI0YWE3MmUyZTk1ZWVmZDdlZmY3Yjg5NDczOTU2MTBhZTI1ODI5YjQzY2M3MzpoOkY" target="_blank" title="Protected by Avanan: https://github.com/cabforum/servercert/pull/470/files">https://github.com/cabforum/servercert/pull/470/files</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thanks again,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Aaron<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 9:49 AM Aaron Gable <<a href="mailto:aaron@letsencrypt.org" target="_blank">aaron@letsencrypt.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>As a result of <a href="https://url.avanan.click/v2/___https:/bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1865080___.YXAzOmRpZ2ljZXJ0OmE6bzoyMjY5YTgxZDcxNTE0ZGU4YjBkZjc5ODk0ZGZiYWZjMzo2Ojc5MDk6N2Y5OWEwNTEwYTIxNGUyZjgwY2Q0NmJiMGQyY2I4MTcxZjMwN2QwZGY2MzA3NDMwZjJhOTRmM2U4ZTZkNDg3NjpoOkY" target="_blank" title="Protected by Avanan: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1865080">this bugzilla incident</a>, and inspired by <a href="https://url.avanan.click/v2/___https:/github.com/cabforum/servercert/pull/327___.YXAzOmRpZ2ljZXJ0OmE6bzoyMjY5YTgxZDcxNTE0ZGU4YjBkZjc5ODk0ZGZiYWZjMzo2OjE5NGQ6ODZiZWM0ZDc1ZDI2YzRkNzM2OGIxMjFlZmY5N2UzOTU4ZjQ5NThjMGM5N2EyMGExYTE5OWIzMjc4ZGY3ZTRiYzpoOkY" target="_blank" title="Protected by Avanan: https://github.com/cabforum/servercert/pull/327">Ballot SC-52</a> which never came to a vote, I would like to re-propose that the Baseline Requirements clarify that all "hour" and "day" time periods are measured with 1-second precision, and do not refer to calendar days. They currently do this in two separate places (three, if you count the definition of Short-Lived Certificates). I believe it will benefit all readers to instead state this convention once at the beginning of the document, so that it is clear that it applies uniformly to all time periods measured in those units.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The pull request can be viewed and commented on here: <a href="https://url.avanan.click/v2/___https:/github.com/cabforum/servercert/pull/470___.YXAzOmRpZ2ljZXJ0OmE6bzoyMjY5YTgxZDcxNTE0ZGU4YjBkZjc5ODk0ZGZiYWZjMzo2OmZkOTE6ODM5YWFmMzkyYjM4OThmMTU3NmVjMjdlNTk2Y2ZjNWZhZDRmODZjOTQyNzcwY2FjMWQ3ZTU1ODRjOWU3YmRmYjpoOkY" target="_blank" title="Protected by Avanan: https://github.com/cabforum/servercert/pull/470">https://github.com/cabforum/servercert/pull/470</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The precise diff that will become the ballot redline if no changes are requested can be viewed here: <a href="https://url.avanan.click/v2/___https:/github.com/cabforum/servercert/compare/90a98dc7c1131eaab01af411968aa7330d315b9b...c3e928e73caed8c8489ab5406127aad661b8a63e___.YXAzOmRpZ2ljZXJ0OmE6bzoyMjY5YTgxZDcxNTE0ZGU4YjBkZjc5ODk0ZGZiYWZjMzo2OjdjNjQ6MTI0NDAzNTNlYjI5MGE4YTcxYmEzNzFjZjRmMWU1NGQzNmYwNGZhZDk0ZGM3OWNkM2VhMDE5MWZjYjU5MTRiNTpoOkY" target="_blank" title="Protected by Avanan: https://github.com/cabforum/servercert/compare/90a98dc7c1131eaab01af411968aa7330d315b9b...c3e928e73caed8c8489ab5406127aad661b8a63e">https://github.com/cabforum/servercert/compare/90a98dc7c1131eaab01af411968aa7330d315b9b...c3e928e73caed8c8489ab5406127aad661b8a63e</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I am seeking endorsers for this ballot.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thank you!<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Aaron<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>