<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><span id="m_3062820874607351244gmail-docs-internal-guid-078c7913-7fff-67f3-0be6-dc73c0788557"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Hi all,</span></p><br><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Thanks for the discussion thus far. </span></p><br><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">In hopes of making it easier for others to follow along with and contribute to the discussion, I added a summary to the ballot background and justification </span><a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/180T6cDSWPy54Rb5d6R4zN7MuLEMShaZ4IRLQgdPqE98/edit#bookmark=id.ceedtvdz1590" style="text-decoration-line:none" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(74,110,224);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">document</span></a><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">. I can continue to generate these summaries from time to time if they are helpful to members of our community.</span></p><br><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">If I’ve missed or misinterpreted anything in the summary, please:</span></p><ol style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:decimal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">accept my apologies in advance</span></p></li><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:decimal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">offer clarification (feel free to comment directly on the doc and I’ll make the necessary updates)</span></p></li></ol><br><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Also, I’ve attempted to summarize unaddressed questions and comments below, adding clarification where possible.</span></p><br><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-weight:700;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Questions and Comments:</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></p><ol style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:decimal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">[Dimitris/Aaron] Should CAs not issuing certificates be required to issue (at least) daily CRLs as required in the proposed text? Why should a CA publish a new CRL if it hasn’t revoked a certificate since the last one?</span></p></li></ol><ul style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:disc;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;margin-left:36pt"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">New Response: It seems worth exploring the “carve-out” described by Dimitris and Aaron. Alternative language proposed </span><a href="https://github.com/ryancdickson/staging/pull/3/files" style="text-decoration-line:none" target="_blank"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">here</span></a><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> attempts to specify when initial CRL publication must occur, ongoing issuance requirements, and when CAs may stop issuing CRLs. [Note, please feel welcome to offer suggested changes on the PR linked above].</span></p></li></ul><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></p><ol style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px" start="2"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:decimal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">[Aaron] Made some editorial comments that I’ll work on in </span><a href="https://github.com/ryancdickson/staging/tree/make-ocsp-optional-updates" style="text-decoration-line:none" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(74,110,224);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">this</span></a><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> branch.</span></p></li></ol><br><ol style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px" start="3"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:decimal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">[Aaron] What does it mean to “support on-line revocation checking via OCSP”?</span></p></li></ol><ul style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:disc;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;margin-left:36pt"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">New Response: Alternative language proposed </span><a href="https://github.com/ryancdickson/staging/commit/1bc7e08cc403a25db874d4fb56af7ca46571406c" style="text-decoration-line:none" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(74,110,224);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">here</span></a><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> attempts to clarify this language.</span></p></li></ul><br><ol style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px" start="4"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:decimal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">[Aaron] Can we discuss the motivations behind prohibiting the use of “indirect CRLs”?</span></p></li></ol><ul style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:disc;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;margin-left:36pt"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">New Response: Though Aaron closed this issue, some final clarifications. While preparing the CRL Profile included in the proposal, we downloaded all CRLs disclosed to CCADB. We observed no instances of indirectCRLs in use today. Given our understanding of the language in SC-62 described by Corey, our opinion that indirect CRLs increase the complexity of the Web PKI, the absence of CAs relying on this practice, and given </span><a href="https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/refs/heads/main:net/cert/internal/revocation_checker.cc;l=167-169;drc=e39fffa6900a679961f5992b8f24a084853b811a" style="text-decoration-line:none" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(74,110,224);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Chrome</span></a><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> and likely other consumers do not support this practice, a clear prohibition felt in the best interest of this community to help standardize expected behavior.</span></p></li></ul><br><ol style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px" start="5"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:decimal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">[Aaron] Can CA owners share:</span></p></li></ol><ul style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:disc;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;margin-left:36pt"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">How many certificates you have which embed a CRLDP?</span></p></li><ul style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:square;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;margin-left:36pt"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">New Response: While not a CA, I was hoping to help offer additional context using the Censys queries outlined </span><a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oHWJTlVuZIhOwTE9lsx4iT4UsA0C_tP7mGEHW9nfwII/edit#gid=0" style="text-decoration-line:none" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(74,110,224);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">here</span></a><span style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">. My interpretation of the results is that ~36% of all time-valid leafs asserting a BR certificate policy OID contain a CRLDP, and that ~88% of the CAs issuing those leafs include CRLDP by default on 100% of certs issued that assert a BR policy OID (i.e., the set of CAs capable of turning down OCSP services as described in the ballot). Feedback on the queries to offer more accurate results are welcome.</span></p></li></ul></ul><ul style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:disc;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;margin-left:36pt"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">How many requests-per-second you receive for that CRLDP as a result?</span></p></li><ul style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:square;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;margin-left:36pt"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">[not yet addressed]</span></p></li></ul></ul><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></p><ol style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px" start="6"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:decimal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">[Wayne] Expressed concern that the ballot does not prevent CAs from sharding CRLs to the point that individual sites are easily or exclusively identified, so even allowing cRLDPs in end-entity certificates seems to violate the purpose of this ballot.</span></p></li></ol><ul style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:disc;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;margin-left:36pt"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">New Response: It’s unclear why a CA would be incentivized to do this, but it is a valid point. Short of authoritatively describing accepted conditions (e.g., based on certificate issuance time) and minimal thresholds for sharding (e.g., minimally 100 certificates assigned to each CRLDP), I’m unsure how we might prevent this practice. Do others share this same concern or have ideas as to how we can reduce this unintended outcome?</span></p></li></ul><br><ol style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px" start="7"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:decimal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">[Wayne] Is there some other reason to begin requiring cRLDPs if the CA chooses to operate an OCSP service after this ballot goes into effect?</span></p></li></ol><ul style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><li dir="ltr" style="list-style-type:disc;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap;margin-left:36pt"><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt" role="presentation"><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">New Response: This is a fair point, and now it helps me better understand the perspective from Tim H. at the last SCWG meeting (sorry for misunderstanding your point at that time, Tim!). I agree - if the subscriber certificate contains an OCSP URI, it should not also be required to include CRLDP. Alternative language proposed </span><a href="https://github.com/ryancdickson/staging/commit/2ab659ca36ab0f72318c5b9bec1121cd389f1035" style="text-decoration-line:none" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(74,110,224);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;text-decoration-line:underline;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">here</span></a><span style="background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"> attempts to offer this flexibility. </span></p></li></ul><br><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Thanks again,</span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.38;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:Arial;color:rgb(14,16,26);background-color:transparent;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">Ryan</span></p></span><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 4:44 PM Aaron Gable <<a href="mailto:aaron@letsencrypt.org" target="_blank">aaron@letsencrypt.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Fair enough, thanks for the info! I'm convinced that explicitly disallowing indirect CRLs in this ballot is fine.<div><br></div><div>Aaron</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 2:00 AM Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA) <<a href="mailto:dzacharo@harica.gr" target="_blank">dzacharo@harica.gr</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On 27/4/2023 8:57 μ.μ., Aaron Gable via Servercert-wg wrote:<br>
> I believe that CAs have generally found that Delegated OCSP Signers <br>
> cause more trouble than they're worth, and the same is likely true for <br>
> Delegated CRL Issuers<br>
<br>
Hello Aaron,<br>
<br>
I don't think there is evidence to support this claim about delegated <br>
OCSP Signers. I am aware of a number of CAs that still use and prefer <br>
the delegated OCSP responder model over the pre-signed responses model.<br>
<br>
However, I am not aware of any CA that uses delegated CRL issuers and <br>
perhaps it's not even supported by the existing Browsers.<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Dimitris.<br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div>