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<body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">I agree with the strategy of stating the requirements and then using requirements-free language to reference the ancillary resources, but a lowercased 2119 word is still a 2119 word (“These words are *often* capitalized” – RFC 2119, emphasis
mine).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It’s best to rephrase non-requirements to avoid MUST, SHALL, SHOULD, and MAY entirely. As well as required, recommended, and optional
<span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😊</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Something like: “CAs might find these tools useful”, or even something like: “Additional information is available from these resources.”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Referencing something does not in any way imply it is free from errors or even that it can be used in a BR-compliant way. I give you the BR reference to the original RFC 6844 as an example. The original RFC 6844 had multiple errors and
was rather incompatible with the BRs, but got added to the BRs anyway. Oops.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We should make sure the resources we reference are high enough quality to be useful, but I think the standard ballot / discussion process can handle that.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Tim<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Servercert-wg <servercert-wg-bounces@cabforum.org>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Aaron Gable via Servercert-wg<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 8, 2022 12:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Chris Kemmerer <chris@ssl.com>; CA/B Forum Server Certificate WG Public Discussion List <servercert-wg@cabforum.org><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hanno Böck <hanno@hboeck.de><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Servercert-wg] SCXX Ballot - Debian Weak Keys (and related vulnerabilities)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It seems to me like the appropriate line to walk would be:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">First, state the requirements (such as blocking debian weak keys, or blocking ROCA keys) in plain language, much as the current ballot does. This makes the requirement that CAs must abide by clear.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Second, provide links to tools that may be helpful. Do not preface these links with any normative language, i.e. say "CAs may find these tools useful: ...", not "CAs MAY use these tools: ...". This serves the purpose of providing easy access
to the helpful external resources, but without stating that their contents have been vetted and fully approved.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Does that makes sense?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Aaron<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 12:13 PM Chris Kemmerer via Servercert-wg <<a href="mailto:servercert-wg@cabforum.org">servercert-wg@cabforum.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">INTRO</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Thanks to all who participated in the very useful discussion regarding this proposed ballot in our June 23 2022 call.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">An important point was raised about how to handle external links to recommended (but not required) resources. In "Section 6.1.1.3. Subscriber Key Pair Generation" of the proposed language, we require
CAs to reject requests for certificates with "industry demonstrated weak Private Keys" (as "SHALL" and "MUST" directives), then provide links to "Suggested tools that CAs MAY use" to judge requests.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">THE QUESTIONS</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">The questions here are:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo1">
<b><span style="font-size:12.0pt">If we direct issuers to external resources in CABF documents, what level of CABF-level vetting should be required or expected for those links?</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l5 level1 lfo1">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt">And</span><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"inherit",serif"> is the ballot process itself sufficient vetting for such links?</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">OUR ASSUMPTION AND EXISTING LINKS</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">We are assuming that for, weak key detection, we DO want to provide useful links to help guide certificate issuers (see sidebar below). Note that the current BR language already includes one such
link, to a page maintained by Debian (<a href="https://wiki.debian.org/SSLkeys" target="_blank">https://wiki.debian.org/SSLkeys</a>), though with a vetted status unknown to us. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Our proposed ballot language also adds a requirement to reject keys "identified by the tools available at
<a href="https://github.com/crocs-muni/roca" target="_blank">https://github.com/crocs-muni/roca</a> or equivalent". As we recall it, this resource was suggested by a CABF participant now departed, and again the status of vetting for this link is unknown.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">For what it's worth, a quick scan of the BRs shows that, apart from weak key guidance, we do include links to other external resources which are presumably foundational enough to not require vetting.
These include:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt">IETF (various RFCs, ex. <a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5890" target="_blank">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5890</a>)<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt">IANA (registry information, ex. <a href="https://www.iana.org/assignments/iana-ipv4-special-registry/iana-ipv4-special-registry.xhtml" target="_blank">
https://www.iana.org/assignments/iana-ipv4-special-registry/iana-ipv4-special-registry.xhtml</a>)<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt">NIST (publications, ex. <a href="http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-89/SP-800-89_November2006.pdf" target="_blank">
http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-89/SP-800-89_November2006.pdf</a>)<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt">and the Mozilla Foundation (the Public Suffix List,
<a href="https://publicsuffix.org/" target="_blank">https://publicsuffix.org/</a>).<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">"CROSS-VETTING" OF PROPOSED RESOURCES</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">As Dimitris stated in the call, the two other links included as resources which MAY be utilized:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo3">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt"><a href="https://github.com/CVE-2008-0166" target="_blank">https://github.com/CVE-2008-0166</a><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l4 level1 lfo3">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt"><a href="https://github.com/HARICA-official/debian-weak-keys" target="_blank">https://github.com/HARICA-official/debian-weak-keys</a><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">... have been "cross-vetted" by their respective providers (HARICA and Sectigo).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">This discussion was spurred by a suggestion from Adriano Santoni to consider adding a third resource (Hanno Böck's badkeys tool):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo4">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt"><a href="https://github.com/badkeys/badkeys" target="_blank">https://github.com/badkeys/badkeys</a> (web version:
<a href="https://badkeys.info/" target="_blank">https://badkeys.info/</a>)<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">...for which no such CABF-level "cross-vetting" has been performed (as far as we know).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">We ourselves very much appreciate the effort that went into creating these tools and intend to utilize them. However:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">TO RESTATE THE QUESTIONS</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo5">
<b><span style="font-size:12.0pt">Is the ballot process itself considered adequate vetting for external links in CABF documents?</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo5">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt">If not, <b>what vetting would we consider adequate?</b><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">SIDEBAR: OTHER OPTIONS</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo6">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt">In the June 23 call, an external, CABF-supported resource (i.e. a separate web page with appropriate links) was considered, discussed, and rejected as likely to increase overhead and decrease reliability. Based on this, our sense
is that <b>any links deemed useful should indeed be included in the actual ballot language itself</b>.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3 level1 lfo6">
<span style="font-size:12.0pt">And finally, as raised in previous discussions: <b>
Would some sort of disclaimer be appropriate for external links</b>, and if so should it extend beyond the 6.1.1.3 links to cover external resources more generally?<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">CLOSING REMARKS</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<div id="gmail-m_8952578848581799150divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:black">From:</span></b><span style="color:black"> Servercert-wg <<a href="mailto:servercert-wg-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank">servercert-wg-bounces@cabforum.org</a>> on behalf of Adriano Santoni via Servercert-wg
<<a href="mailto:servercert-wg@cabforum.org" target="_blank">servercert-wg@cabforum.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 12, 2022 7:11 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:servercert-wg@cabforum.org" target="_blank">servercert-wg@cabforum.org</a> <<a href="mailto:servercert-wg@cabforum.org" target="_blank">servercert-wg@cabforum.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hanno Böck <<a href="mailto:hanno@hboeck.de" target="_blank">hanno@hboeck.de</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Servercert-wg] SCXX Ballot - Debian Weak Keys (and related vulnerabilities)</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p>Might a third option be the tool developed by Hanno Boeck?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><a href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fbadkeys%2Fbadkeys&data=05%7C01%7Cchris%40ssl.com%7C8641292420c44f04613b08da4cd14ed0%7C7741372af1ae4cc7b93ce6c2c138b2bb%7C0%7C0%7C637906759104963939%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DwRmkMHaKGp4rQDSPpbekE%2B5MwXinAtDIPExqNT4yZ0%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">https://github.com/badkeys/badkeys</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>From our point of view it's an effective tool.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Adriano<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Il 09/06/2022 15:18, Chris Kemmerer via Servercert-wg ha scritto:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Suggested tools that CAs MAY use to obtain lists of Debian weak keys include:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> - <a href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FCVE-2008-0166&data=05%7C01%7Cchris%40ssl.com%7C8641292420c44f04613b08da4cd14ed0%7C7741372af1ae4cc7b93ce6c2c138b2bb%7C0%7C0%7C637906759104963939%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zfjpsiplLaqFzwkKzciu7cQTRzDeeqBP0XFs3zn5OJg%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
https://github.com/CVE-2008-0166</a> provides a generator, for the complete set of parameters listed above, that runs on any modern 64-bit Linux system; it also provides complete sets of pregenerated keys for the most common RSA key sizes.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> - <a href="https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2FHARICA-official%2Fdebian-weak-keys&data=05%7C01%7Cchris%40ssl.com%7C8641292420c44f04613b08da4cd14ed0%7C7741372af1ae4cc7b93ce6c2c138b2bb%7C0%7C0%7C637906759104963939%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=JAHix0XFgxltAzN0FGh58bZkHVRLacTP8rUK35Ymn0c%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
https://github.com/HARICA-official/debian-weak-keys</a> provides a generator, for a subset of the parameters listed above, that can take advantage of a computer cluster.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="https://lists.cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/servercert-wg" target="_blank">https://lists.cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/servercert-wg</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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