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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>That’s correct. Forum 11 was the prior one that failed. Forum 12 is Dimitris ballot on updates, Forum 13 was the Code signing charter fix. So we are now at 14.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Dean<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Public <public-bounces@cabforum.org> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Tim Hollebeek via Public<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 21, 2020 2:17 PM<br><b>To:</b> Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA) <dzacharo@harica.gr>; Ryan Sleevi <sleevi@google.com>; CABforum1 <public@cabforum.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] Ballot FORUM-12: Creation of S/MIME Certificates Working Group<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I have Forum-14 written down for S/MIME based on a previous management call discussion.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>-Tim<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From:</b> Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA) <<a href="mailto:dzacharo@harica.gr">dzacharo@harica.gr</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 21, 2020 1:43 AM<br><b>To:</b> Ryan Sleevi <<a href="mailto:sleevi@google.com">sleevi@google.com</a>>; CABforum1 <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org">public@cabforum.org</a>>; Tim Hollebeek <<a href="mailto:tim.hollebeek@digicert.com">tim.hollebeek@digicert.com</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] Ballot FORUM-12: Creation of S/MIME Certificates Working Group<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>According to <a href="https://wiki.cabforum.org/ballots">https://wiki.cabforum.org/ballots</a>, it should be FORUM-11<br><br>Dimitris.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On 2020-05-21 1:19 π.μ., Ryan Sleevi via Public wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Oh, and the ballot number will need to be updated - I'm not sure how both collided on 'FORUM-12' (Dimitris' Bylaws ballot and this)<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 6:18 PM Ryan Sleevi <<a href="mailto:sleevi@google.com">sleevi@google.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 2:20 PM Tim Hollebeek <<a href="mailto:tim.hollebeek@digicert.com" target="_blank">tim.hollebeek@digicert.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I’m willing to drop the scope statement based on Thursday’s discussion and the addition of the paragraph I suggested to the introduction, which describes much of the same thing in a form that seems more acceptable to most. Clint and Wayne, are you ok with that?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On the subject of redlines, //github_redline_guide is not normative, so I disagree that it is not a valid Ballot. But that’s not really important, because I’m more than happy to improve the ballot by fixing the link.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>While I realize we end up frequently discussing this, I think you may have missed that this was a different scenario than you may have realized.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>If your ballot had included the full text, then I agree, the redline link was not normative. However, your ballot just pointed to a link, and so that made the link itself normative. The contents of the link were not actually a charter, they were just a few edits. That's why it wasn't really a "Ballot".<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>This is easily fixed in the next run. You can paste the full text, as I think you're one of the folks who still prefers to do so, despite the risks, or you could provide the full link to all the edits, which will at least include a "full charter". Just a single commit on its own, or "as of this revision", can end up being ambiguous :) In the future, the infrastructure WG efforts will certainly make this easier, and it's not difficult to imagine an easy "create a ballot for me" that provides the PDF, docx, and patch file and stable link, so appreciate your patience :)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Assuming Clint and Wayne sign off, please merge the change, and I’ll update the ballot.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>One more set of issues, now that scope has been finalized, that came up on another review cycle: <a href="https://github.com/sleevi/cabforum-docs/pull/22/files" target="_blank">https://github.com/sleevi/cabforum-docs/pull/22/files</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>-Tim<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> Ryan Sleevi <<a href="mailto:sleevi@google.com" target="_blank">sleevi@google.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 13, 2020 5:44 PM<br><b>To:</b> Tim Hollebeek <<a href="mailto:tim.hollebeek@digicert.com" target="_blank">tim.hollebeek@digicert.com</a>>; CABforum1 <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public@cabforum.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] Ballot FORUM-12: Creation of S/MIME Certificates Working Group<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 5:18 PM Tim Hollebeek via Public <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public@cabforum.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Upon approval of the CAB Forum by ballot in accordance with section 5.3 of the Bylaws, the S/MIME Certificates Working Group (“SMWG”) is created to perform the activities as specified in the Charter, with the Charter as described here (<a href="https://github.com/cabforum/documents/pull/167/commits/2aa376c06b45146249d0cc6b8cc5d42d08ccb177" target="_blank">https://github.com/cabforum/documents/pull/167/commits/2aa376c06b45146249d0cc6b8cc5d42d08ccb177</a>).<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Just to be clear: This link doesn't match the link for a valid proposal, so I don't think this is a valid Ballot yet. <a href="https://wiki.cabforum.org/github_redline_guide" target="_blank">https://wiki.cabforum.org/github_redline_guide</a> is helpful, but any suggestions for improvements are welcome.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The immutable link is <a href="https://github.com/cabforum/documents/compare/6e0b8e61590164eb2d686ddcf266b189f46fc636...2aa376c06b45146249d0cc6b8cc5d42d08ccb177" target="_blank">https://github.com/cabforum/documents/compare/6e0b8e61590164eb2d686ddcf266b189f46fc636...2aa376c06b45146249d0cc6b8cc5d42d08ccb177</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The pull request is still <a href="https://github.com/cabforum/documents/pull/167" target="_blank">https://github.com/cabforum/documents/pull/167</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Again, our concern is that the statement that "non-publicly trusted S/MIME certificates are out of scope" accomplishes nothing valuable, and causes real harm. That is, either it fails to keep anything out of scope due to its definition, OR limits the discussion to being impossible to introduce any new requirements due to, by definition, anything not in the existing documents is out of scope. Neither of these scenarios are good, and the risk of harm outweighs any benefits. We remain committed to trying to work with you and understand your goals, to find language that better captures those goals without the problematic ambiguity and harm of what's being proposed.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Public mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:Public@cabforum.org">Public@cabforum.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public">https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>