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    I think Wayne's last phrase maintains a certain balance that covers
    most of the concerns raised from all sides. I propose we move
    forward with that and see how it will work out. In case we find
    ourselves in a situation where we can't discuss or propose new ideas
    due to possible IPR alarms raised by members, we can revisit this
    language.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Dimitris.<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/2/2019 3:12 π.μ., Kirk Hall via
      Public wrote:<br>
    </div>
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cite="mid:a990913852cd4205a74e614ed1935375@PMSPEX03.corporate.datacard.com">
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I’m
            not trying to be difficult, but I’m not sure there will
            always be agreement on how to interpret the phrase “</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">the
            Forum shall not engage in activities that carry a
            significant risk of introducing encumbered intellectual
            property”.  Clearly working on the development or amendment
            of Guidelines should be blocked.  Can you give examples of
            “activities that carry a significant risk of introducing
            encumbered intellectual property” that don’t involve
            Guidelines?  I can’t think if any – the IRPA only addresses
            Guidelines.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">I
            would hate to adopt a phrase like that if it resulted in
            fights on what non-Guidelines topics could be discussed at
            the Forum level.</span><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
            Wayne Thayer [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:wthayer@mozilla.com">mailto:wthayer@mozilla.com</a>]
            <br>
            <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 6, 2019 2:40 PM<br>
            <b>To:</b> Kirk Hall <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com"><Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com></a><br>
            <b>Cc:</b> CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List
            <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:public@cabforum.org"><public@cabforum.org></a><br>
            <b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL]Re: cabfpub] Bylaws: Add Forum
            Subcommittees<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="color:red">WARNING:</span></strong>
          This email originated outside of Entrust Datacard.<br>
          <strong><span style="color:red">DO NOT CLICK</span></strong>
          links or attachments unless you trust the sender and know the
          content is safe.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center">
          <hr width="100%" size="3" align="center">
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Kirk - I agree with your arguments that
            my proposed language is too broad but I also think that
            yours is a bit too narrow. How about:<br>
            <br>
            “Due to the lack of IPR protection, Subcommittees of the
            Forum shall not engage in activities that carry a
            significant risk of introducing encumbered intellectual
            property, such as the development or amendment of
            Guidelines.”<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">- Wayne<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 11:25 AM Kirk
              Hall <<a href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</a>>
              wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
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            1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
            6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
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              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"
                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Wayne
                    – as I said on the call, I think the restriction
                    should be narrower.  Something like “In order to
                    avoid coming within the scope of the IPR Agreement ,
                    the Forum and its Subcommittees shall not engage in
                    the development or amendment of Guidelines.”</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"
                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"
                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">The
                    draft language you have below is almost impossible
                    to apply – “any activity that could result in a
                    claim infringement of a Member's Intellectual
                    Property”.  If we discuss a draft Charter at the
                    Forum level for creation of a new Anti-Gravity
                    Certificate Working Group and we want to fine-tune
                    the WG’s scope, we will certainly be discussing
                    technical issues.  How can we possibly know whether
                    or not our discussion “could result in a claim
                    infringement of a Member's Intellectual Property”? 
                    I have no idea what Intellectual Property the other
                    Members have.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"
                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"
                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">As
                    another example, the Infrastructure WG may forward a
                    proposal to the Forum for how we do our wiki,
                    emails, etc., and ask for comments.  I’m sure that
                    several Members have IP relating to wikis, servers,
                    email systems, etc.  If we discuss the WG proposal
                    at the Forum level, would that be an “activity that
                    could result in a claim infringement of a Member's
                    Intellectual Property”?  No, because the Forum will
                    not be drafting Guidelines, and is not a WG.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"
                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"
                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">We
                    need to keep focused on the language of the IPRA and
                    what it covers – which is only development of
                    Guidelines at the WG level.  So long as the Forum
                    (and its subcommittees) stays away from that, we
                    should be good.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"
                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"
                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
                    Public [mailto:<a
                      href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b>Wayne Thayer via Public<br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 24, 2019 9:38 AM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List
                    <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org"
                      target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">public@cabforum.org</a>><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL][cabfpub] Bylaws: Add
                    Forum Subcommittees</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"
                  style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt">On
                      today's call, we discussed the addition of the
                      following section to the Bylaws:<o:p></o:p></p>
                    <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
                      windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentcolor
                      currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                        style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">5.6
                           Subcommittees<br>
                        The Forum may establish subcommittees of the
                        Forum by ballot to address any of the Forum’s
                        business as specified in the ballot.
                        Subcommittees are open to all Forum Members. A
                        Forum Subcommittee may work on and recommend
                        Forum ballots, complete delegated Forum
                        functions, or issue reports to the Forum that
                        are within the subcommittee’s jurisdiction.
                        Subcommittees must post all agendas and minutes
                        on a public mail list.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </blockquote>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Ryan
                      proposed the addition of explicit language
                      regarding IPR. Something like:<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Subcommittees
                      of the Forum shall not engage in any activity that
                      could result in a claim infringement of a Member's
                      Intellectual Property. Such activities include the
                      discussion or creation of Guidelines or similar
                      standards-setting documents.<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Comments?<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"
                      style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Wayne<o:p></o:p></p>
                  </div>
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            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
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      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
Public mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Public@cabforum.org">Public@cabforum.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public">https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public</a>
</pre>
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