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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D">I’d be happy to participate as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Public <public-bounces@cabforum.org>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Wayne Thayer via Public<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, 20 October, 2018 02:47<br>
<b>To:</b> Tim Hollebeek <tim.hollebeek@digicert.com>; CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <public@cabforum.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] Ad-hoc Bylaw Review group<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Tim,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">From your message, I'm not sure if you're offering to coordinate such a group and are looking for volunteers, or just pointing out the way forward? If you're looking for volunteers, count me in.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">- Wayne<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 11:26 AM Tim Hollebeek via Public <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org">public@cabforum.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The relevant question at this point is who would participate in and contribute to an effort to review the Bylaws line by line, and determine whether the provision applies to the
Forum as a whole, Chartered Working Groups, and/or Subcommittees, and whether the provision can be overridden by a lower level group.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The effort would also provide default provisions for Chartered Working Groups, for the case that the provision is applicable to the Chartered Working Group (and, by implication,
its Subcommittees) but absent from the group’s Charter.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Having a small group come up with a draft proposal after a detailed review is probably the fastest way forward.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">-Tim<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b> Public <<a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ryan Sleevi via Public<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 16, 2018 1:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kirk Hall <<a href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com" target="_blank">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> CABFPub <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public@cabforum.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] Proposed Bylaws Sec. 5.3.1(f) - Default procedures for new Chartered Working Groups<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Kirk,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">I'm afraid that wasn't my question, nor was it a suggestion.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">It sounds like you haven't done what was discussed - an evaluation of the bylaws. I'm hoping you can make a more compelling case that these will address the issues. One way to make
such a compelling case is to highlight "The Bylaws require CWGs specify how to address X, Y, Z in their charters. Here are samples we can use to address Y and Z in a generic way". This was the path discussed as a positive step forward, and it does not appear
this does it.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">For example, your proposal is clearly deficient and fails to address what was discussed - such as how the formation of subcommittees is done, which the Bylaws call for in 5.3.1(e).
This is the problem with rushing to provide language, and ignoring the discussions on possible paths forward - it easily leads to avoidable mistakes.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:50 AM Kirk Hall <<a href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com" target="_blank">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Good point. We can modify my language so the default provisions in my proposal below would apply to new CWGs *<u>and all subcommittees created by a
CWG</u>”. How does that sound to you?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D">Do you have any other edits to suggest?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>From:</b> Ryan Sleevi [mailto:<a href="mailto:sleevi@google.com" target="_blank">sleevi@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 16, 2018 1:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kirk Hall <<a href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com" target="_blank">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</a>>; CABFPub <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public@cabforum.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [EXTERNAL]Re: [cabfpub] Proposed Bylaws Sec. 5.3.1(f) - Default procedures for new Chartered Working Groups<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thanks for proposing this.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">It does not seem to address some of the other topics that were discussed, such as the formation of subcommittees.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">We left the discussion with a call to provide a methodical analysis of where the bylaws defer to a CWGs charter, to provide better example guidance. Have you done this? It might
be better to start from there, rather than proposing ballot text immediately following such discussions, so that we can actually have confidence that the issues are being addressed.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:43 AM Kirk Hall via Public <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public@cabforum.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">As we discussed this morning, we need certain “default” procedures for how *new* Working Groups operate, which could (in theory) be specifically overridden by the Forum by passing
*different* procedures for a particular CWG in the charter of a new Chartered Working Group (CWG).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">It is unlikely that we would ever override these standard Bylaws provisions for an individual CWG charter, but it would be possible.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">A CWG could
<u>also</u> adopt *additional* procedures for its CWG by a CWG ballot if it wants to, so long as the additional procedures do not conflict with the CWG charter and/or Bylaw Sec. 5.3.1(f).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">So this is a potential Forum ballot to amend the Bylaws – please comment:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b> </b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Bylaws Sec. 5.3.1 - Formation of Chartered Working<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt">
</span>Groups ***</b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext" style="margin-left:27.0pt">
<b> </b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext">
<b><u>(f) </u></b><u>Unless otherwise specifically provided in the charter of a CWG, a CWG shall be governed by the following rules:</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext" style="margin-left:.5in">
1.<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span><u>Each CWG shall have a Chair and Vice Chair who shall be elected by CWG members following the procedures of Bylaws Section 4.1 as closely as possible. The initial term for CWG officers shall expire on November
30 of the next even-numbered year after the CWG is established to be synchronized with the terms of Forum officers.</u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext" style="margin-left:.5in">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext" style="margin-left:.5in">
2.<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span><u>Proposing and voting on CWG Ballots by CWG members shall follow the procedures stated in Bylaws Sec. 2.3 and 2.4</u>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext">
* * * * *<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext">
[<u>Note</u>: Bylaws Sec. 5.2 <b><u>already</u></b> requires CWGs to post Agendas, Minutes, and Ballots to the Public lists – see below - so I don’t think we need more default provisions on those subjects. LWG means Legacy Working Group, and all Legacy Working
Groups have expired.]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<h2>Bylaws Sec. 5.2 - Public Mail List and Public <span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">
Web</span><span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt"> </span>Site [Existing language]<o:p></o:p></h2>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext" style="margin-top:.45pt">
<b><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext" style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:15.55pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
The Chair shall appoint a List Manager who shall maintain a Public Mail List. Members and Interested Parties may post to the Public Mail List in compliance with these Bylaws. Anyone else is allowed to subscribe to and receive messages posted to the Public Mail
List, which may be crawled and indexed by Internet search engines.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext" style="margin-top:.2pt">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext" style="margin-right:20.45pt;line-height:95%">
The Chair shall appoint a Webmaster. The Webmaster shall post instructions on the Public Web Site for subscribing to the Public Mail List.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext" style="margin-top:.1pt">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext">
The following materials shall be posted to the Public Mail List or Public Web Site:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msobodytext" style="margin-top:.5pt">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msolistparagraph" style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:75.15pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">(a)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>Draft and final agendas for LWG and <b><u>CWG</u></b> meetings, Forum Meetings and Forum Teleconferences (including any sub-groups or<span style="letter-spacing:-.4pt">
</span>committees).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msolistparagraph" style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:23.8pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">(b)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>Final minutes of Forum Meetings and Forum Teleconferences (including minutes of any sub- groups or committees), and minutes of all LWG and
<b><u>CWG</u></b> teleconferences and<span style="letter-spacing:-1.45pt"> </span>
meetings.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msolistparagraph" style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:20.1pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">(c)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>Messages formally proposing a Forum ballot (including ballots to establish, extend, modify, or terminate LWGs (as applicable) and
<b>CWGs</b>), individual votes, vote and quorum counts, and messages announcing ballot outcomes and voting<span style="letter-spacing:-.7pt">
</span>breakdowns.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msolistparagraph" style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:9.55pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">(d)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>Initial and final drafts of Forum requirements, guidelines, and recommendations after
<span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">the </span>drafter has had an opportunity to receive and respond to initial Member<span style="letter-spacing:-.35pt">
</span>comments.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="m-5978855605200640088m-2130791375912708447m3471589212222847084msolistparagraph" style="mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:22.55pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt">
<span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">(e)</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt;letter-spacing:-.1pt">
</span>Initial and final drafts of <b><u>CWG</u></b> charter documents, guidelines, and recommendations after the drafter has had an opportunity to receive and respond to initial Working Group member comments.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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