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Hi Inigo,<br>
<br>
Tim has withdrawn the changes to ETSI because his main goal is to
just fix the Bylaws with the language of Ballot 206. The risk of CAs
using the old TS standards is already very high and we should not
wait any longer to fix this. I'd be happy to propose a new ballot to
fix the ETSI language for the Bylaws and the SCWG charter.<br>
<br>
I will propose replacing:<br>
<br>
"or ETSI TS 102042, ETSI 101456, or ETSI EN 319 411-1"<br>
<br>
with "or ETSI EN 319 411-1". <br>
<br>
That's the only change I am currently willing to propose/endorse.
Looking for two endorsers.<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Dimitris.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 14/9/2018 10:06 πμ, InigoBarreira
via Servercert-wg wrote:<br>
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<div>Tim,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I´d remove all mentions to ETSI TS documents (102 042 and
101 456) in all CABF documents. These TSs have not been
updated for years, they don´t reflect the current requirements
of the CABF.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards</div>
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<hr tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRpF281658" style="direction: ltr;"><font size="2"
face="Tahoma" color="#000000"><b>De:</b> Servercert-wg
[<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:servercert-wg-bounces@cabforum.org">servercert-wg-bounces@cabforum.org</a>] en nombre de Tim
Hollebeek via Servercert-wg [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:servercert-wg@cabforum.org">servercert-wg@cabforum.org</a>]<br>
<b>Enviado:</b> jueves, 13 de septiembre de 2018 20:46<br>
<b>Para:</b> Tim Hollebeek; CA/Browser Forum Public
Discussion List; Ryan Sleevi; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:servercert-wg@cabforum.org">servercert-wg@cabforum.org</a><br>
<b>Asunto:</b> Re: [Servercert-wg] Ballot FORUM-4 v2<br>
</font><br>
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<div>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">As discussed on the Validation WG
call, this unfortunately is probably not going to be
possible for this particular ballot. Ben did a lot of
work to get the current redlined document to accurately
reflect what the Bylaws were intended to be at this
point.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In the attached version 3, I’ve
corrected a typo that was left behind after I reverted
the ETSI changes. I would urge a few people to take a
close look at it and make sure there are no additional
errors …</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’ll aim to update the ballot (again,
sigh…) once I’ve heard from a few people that it looks
good based on analysis that is independent of mine and
Ben’s.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Tim</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div style="border:none; border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;
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<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Public
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org"><public-bounces@cabforum.org></a> <b>On Behalf
Of
</b>Tim Hollebeek via Public<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 13, 2018 9:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ryan Sleevi <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sleevi@google.com"><sleevi@google.com></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:servercert-wg@cabforum.org">servercert-wg@cabforum.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> CABFPub <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:public@cabforum.org"><public@cabforum.org></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] [Servercert-wg]
Ballot FORUM-4 v2</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I’m highly sympathetic to that,
especially with a document as important as the
Bylaws. I’ve had the same concern as well as I look
through Ben’s redline. After looking at it closer on
the plane last night, I have some concerns about what
appear to be some changes to cross-references that
appear correct, but I’m not sure if they’re needed.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I will also note that I have
previously pointed out that according to the Bylaws,
redlines are REQUIRED, but cannot be trusted in any
way, shape, or form, as our Bylaws clearly state they
are ignored for the purposed of updating the
requirements. Yet everyone seems to want to review
the redlines, not the ballot text. As I’ve pointed
out several times, creating an additional
representation of the changes that is required but
cannot be trusted doesn’t help anyone.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is really, really silly, and I
wish people were more vocal and active in finding a
solution to it that works for everyone. And no, I
don’t want to discuss what tools or processes should
be used to produce redlines.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Each ballot should have one and
only one official representation of the proposed
changes, and no alternative unofficial changes should
be required. I’ve circulated several proposals, but I
really don’t care about the details, as long as the
problem is solved.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In this case, I think I’m going to
look and see if the Ballot Text from 216 applies
cleanly to the latest Bylaws, and produce a redline
based on that.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">-Tim</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Ryan Sleevi <<a
href="mailto:sleevi@google.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">sleevi@google.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 13, 2018 2:15
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Tim Hollebeek <<a
href="mailto:tim.hollebeek@digicert.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">tim.hollebeek@digicert.com</a>>;
<a href="mailto:servercert-wg@cabforum.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">servercert-wg@cabforum.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> CABFPub <<a
href="mailto:public@cabforum.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">public@cabforum.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Servercert-wg] Ballot
FORUM-4 v2</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tim,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I believe there had been a
previous suggestion to provide this as a clearer
redline, rather than an "Adopt Document X". Can
you clarify that?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">By presenting it as you have,
it's going to create more work to even make sure
that the formatting of the document - claiming
to be a redline - actually matches to the last
canonical version, and that the changes you've
highlighted in red, are, well the changes to be
made.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I hope you can understand why
that's more difficult, because it requires
wholesale comparison rather than taking the
previous version and showing how it would be
corrected.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 9:20
PM Tim Hollebeek via Servercert-wg <<a
href="mailto:servercert-wg@cabforum.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">servercert-wg@cabforum.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Ballot FORUM-4
v2: Fix mistakes made during passage of
Governance Reform Ballot 206</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Purpose of
Ballot</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">The Governance
Reform ballot (Ballot 206 under the old
ballot numbering scheme) was extremely
complicated and took roughly two years to
draft. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">The changes to
the Bylaws from Ballot 216 were intended to
be included in the Governance Reform ballot,
but were accidentally not included.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">The attached
version of the Bylaws restores the important
discussion period changes that were approved
by the members but then accidentally
overwritten.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">The following
motion has been proposed by Tim Hollebeek of
DigiCert and endorsed by Wayne Thayer of
Mozilla and Moudrick Dadashov of SSC.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">--- MOTION
BEGINS ---</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">This ballot
replaces the “Bylaws of the CA/Browser
Forum” version 1.9 with version 2.0 of those
Bylaws, attached to this ballot.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">--- MOTION ENDS
---</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">The procedure
for approval of this ballot is as follows:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Discussion (7
days)</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Start Time:
2018-09-12, 9:30 pm Eastern Time</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">End Time:
2018-09-19, 9:30 pm Eastern Time</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Vote for
approval (7 days)</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">Start Time:
2018-09-19, 9:30 pm Eastern Time</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="">End Time:
2018-09-26, 9:30 pm Eastern Time</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/servercert-wg</a></p>
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