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It looks like a similar conversation was captured in the minutes
of previous Server Certificate WG teleconferences.<br>
<ul>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://cabforum.org/2018/07/12/2018-07-12-scwg-minutes/">https://cabforum.org/2018/07/12/2018-07-12-scwg-minutes/</a>
where the ambiguity on how to form subcommittees was first
raised</li>
<li><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://cabforum.org/2018/07/26/2018-07-26-server-certificate-working-group-minutes/">https://cabforum.org/2018/07/26/2018-07-26-server-certificate-working-group-minutes/</a>
where the members expressed their opinion (via doodle poll)
and the majority chose to resolve this ambiguity by requiring
ballots for the formation of subcommittees in the SCWG.<br>
</li>
</ul>
IMO, members are in favor of ballots to resolve issues like this.
The definition of a subcommittee is broad enough and described in
5.3.1(e) "to address any of such CWG's business". It is very clear
to me that both proposed subcommittees (validation and NetSec) are
within the SCWG's scope.<br>
<br>
I thought we had agreed that until the SCWG charter is amended (to
include language around subcommittees, election of officers and
other issues that were discussed in previous calls), we would
proceed with using ballots as the agreed-upon decision making
process. I understand that Kirk's proposed ballots (as a process)
are aligned with this decision. The content of the ballots
(whether or not we will name "chairs", etc for subcommittees) is
debatable and under discussion.<br>
<br>
As a general comment, I would like to note that the majority of
Contributions were taking place during "Legacy Working Groups"
with the previous governance. These "officially declared" teams
had great momentum, produced a lot of improvements to the Forum's
Guidelines, met regularly and were coordinated by one or two
people that facilitated the discussions and provided the necessary
logistics (calendar scheduling, agendas, minutes and so on). I
can't imagine that the Governance change intended to make things
so hard to form these currently-called "subcommittees". In case of
doubt, ballots were always a good way forward, <b>unless </b>they
propose something that is <b>clearly against</b> the Bylaws. <br>
<br>
<br>
Dimitris.<br>
<br>
On 14/9/2018 3:43 πμ, Ryan Sleevi via Public wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 8:39 PM Kirk Hall <<a
href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Thanks
for the list, Wayne. Responses inline. Remember, a
Subcommittee has no real power, it’s just a place
where members interested in a subject who want to be
involved in drafting proposals for the whole SCWG
can work together – we have 10+ years of successful
experience with this approach, and are just
continuing it at the SCWG level.</span></p>
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">[Wayne]
To respond to Kirk's question about subjects that
need to be better defined, here is a start:</span></p>
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style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">*
Do Subcommittees have Chairs and if so how are they
appointed? [KH] Yes, for the same reason we had
Chairs for old-style Working Groups of the Forum.
There is no change here (BTW, our Bylaws didn’t
include rules for old WG Chairs either – somehow it
all worked out). Dean has correctly listed what a
Chair does. </span></p>
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<div>This answer doesn't suffice, because our new Bylaws do
change things substantially, and the reasons for the old
structure of WGs doesn't just naturally change to SCWGs.</div>
<div> </div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">*
How are Subcommittees chartered? (are they
chartered?) [KH] Same as in the past when we
created old-style WGs of the Forum – by ballots, in
this case SCWG ballots. No change here.</span></p>
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<div>This is half correct, but misses the point of the
question. The SCWG is responsible for defining how
Subcommittees are created, per our Bylaws - and it has not.
Yet.</div>
<div> </div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">*
What are the required contents of a Subcommittee
charter? [KH] Same as in the past when we created
old-style WGs of the Forum – by ballot language. We
never had problems in drafting the ballots that
created old WGs of the Forum – see Ballots 109, 128,
138, 143, 165, and 203. No change here. What
problem do you see from following our past
procedure?</span></p>
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<div>Obviously, there's nothing you can point to support this
interpretation, and your interpretation itself isn't
supported by the Bylaws, because the SCWG does not define
what you just stated.</div>
<div> </div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">*
How are Subcommittees operated? [KH] In the same
fashion as old WGs of the Forum were operated –
teleconferences and informal procedures. No change
here. </span></p>
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<div>Again, this is not consistent with the Bylaws. This is
your proposed path, but this is not the defined path.</div>
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</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">*
What information is public/private? Do they have
their own mailing lists? [KH] Same as the way
information was handled for the old WGs of the Forum
– I think old WG information has always been posted
to the Public list, so the new Subcommittees will
simply post to the SCWG list, which is public. No
change here.</span></p>
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<div>Again, this is not consistent with the Bylaws. This is
your proposed path, but this is not the defined path.</div>
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<div><span
style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt"> </span></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">*
How are Subcommittees dissolved? [KH] In the same
fashion as old WGs of the Forum were handled. If a
Subcommittee has no work to do, it can stop meeting
until it has more work, or I suppose we can have a
new ballot to dissolve the Subcommittee, if we
care. Most Subcommittees will have ongoing work to
do (Validation, NetSec), so should be perpetual. We
may create other Subcommittees that should have a
specific termination date in the ballot that creates
the Subcommittee it if we believe that is
appropriate, as we did once in the past. No change
here.</span></p>
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<div>Again, this is not consistent with the Bylaws. This is
your proposed path, but this is not the defined path.</div>
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