<div dir="ltr">Kirk, Dimitris,<div><br></div><div>Could you explain how you imagine this process working? I think it's presently underspecified, highlighting Gerv's concerns.</div><div><br></div><div>Here's just a small sample of realistic problems that would emerge:</div><div>1) At what point can such Editorial Changes be proposed? During discussion or during voting?</div><div>2) At what point are objections raised? What happens if votes were based on text that was Editorial, objections were raised that they're not Editorial, and in the retrospective analysis of the original language, the votes change?</div><div><br></div><div>Working through a simple analysis of timelines and identifying at what point X can happen and at what point it can no longer happen would do a great service in identifying further deficiencies in the proposed language. I suspect that if we attempt to solve this problem, it will inevitably end up looking very similar to our voting procedures, since the design of those are to allow folks ample time to vote and to avoid confusion as to what is being voted on. Thus, I question the fundamental value.</div><div><br></div><div>I appreciate the enthusiasm being applied for what members may see as 'simple' fixes, but as we know with substantive changes in process, these are hardly that.</div><div><br></div><div>Further, I would encourage those proposing the "Editorial Language" to do so in a separate ballot. I think we'd be reasonably confident to say that this is not a problem being introduced by this Ballot, therefore, I would suggest we not attempt to solve it by attaching unnecessarily to this ballot.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 7:44 PM, Kirk Hall via Public <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public@cabforum.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">+1 – sounds good to me.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Gerv – are you willing to make this change to your draft ballot?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"> Dimitris Zacharopoulos [mailto:<a href="mailto:jimmy@it.auth.gr" target="_blank">jimmy@it.auth.gr</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 8, 2017 3:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Virginia Fournier <<a href="mailto:vfournier@apple.com" target="_blank">vfournier@apple.com</a>>; CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public@cabforum.org</a>>; Kirk Hall <<a href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com" target="_blank">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</a><wbr>>; Gervase Markham <<a href="mailto:gerv@mozilla.org" target="_blank">gerv@mozilla.org</a>></span></p><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] [EXTERNAL]Re: Ballot XXX: Update Discussion Period<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Offering a previously stated suggestion.<br>
<br>
"Editorial changes" (the definitions 1 and 2 from W3C Process Document seem reasonable) must be proposed to the public list and clearly identified as such. If any voting member objects and considers such change as "not editorial", then the formal ballot process
shall take place. if no objections are raised, then these editorial changes shall be applied along with changes approved via the next upcoming ballot.<br>
<br>
Does this make sense?<br>
Dimitris.<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 8/12/2017 9:14 μμ, Virginia Fournier via Public wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Maybe we could state that “editorial” changes could be made without restarting the discussion period. “Editorial” could be defined something like 1 and 2 below (taken from the W3C Process Document):
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<h4 id="m_-4835283044217413735correction-classes"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">6.2.5 Classes of Changes<u></u><u></u></span></h4>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">This document distinguishes the following 4 classes of changes to a specification. The first two classes of change are considered <dfn id="m_-4835283044217413735editorial-change"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">editorial
changes</span></dfn>, the latter two <dfn id="m_-4835283044217413735substantive-change"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">substantive changes</span></dfn>.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0433ff">1. No changes to text content</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0433ff">These changes include fixing broken links, style sheets or invalid markup.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0433ff">2. Corrections that do not affect conformance</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0433ff">Changes that reasonable implementers would not interpret as changing architectural or interoperability requirements or their implementation. Changes which
resolve ambiguities in the specification are considered to change (by clarification) the implementation requirements and do not fall into this class.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0433ff">Examples of changes in this class include correcting non-normative code examples where the code clearly conflicts with normative requirements, clarifying
informative use cases or other non-normative text, fixing typos or grammatical errors where the change does not change implementation requirements. If there is any doubt or dissent as to whether requirements are changed, such changes do not fall into this
class.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0433ff">3. Corrections that do not add new features</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0433ff">These changes <em><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">may</span></em> affect conformance to the specification. A change that affects conformance
is one that:</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">
<u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0433ff">makes conforming data, processors, or other conforming agents become non-conforming according to the new version, or</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">
<u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0433ff">makes non-conforming data, processors, or other agents become conforming, or</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:1.0in">
<u></u><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span>·<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><u></u><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0433ff">clears up an ambiguity or under-specified part of the specification in such a way that data, a processor, or an agent whose conformance was once unclear becomes clearly
either conforming or non-conforming.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0433ff">4. New features</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#0433ff">Changes that add a new functionality, element, etc.</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Best regards,<br>
<br>
Virginia Fournier<br>
Senior Standards Counsel<br>
Apple Inc.<br>
<span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">☏</span> <a href="tel:(669)%20227-9595" value="+16692279595" target="_blank">669-227-9595</a><br>
<span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">✉</span>︎ <a href="mailto:vmf@apple.com" target="_blank">vmf@apple.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
On Dec 8, 2017, at 10:29 AM, Kirk Hall <<a href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com" target="_blank">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</a><wbr>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Gerv, this started as your ballot, so it's up to you - do you want to allow such minor edits without restarting the discussion period, or not?<br>
<br>
If yes, you need to put defining / permissive language in the ballot. I won't be comfortable if we have no written permission for edits, but then allow them informally later when ballots have errors - it needs to be in the ballot.<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Gervase Markham [<a href="mailto:gerv@mozilla.org" target="_blank">mailto:gerv@mozilla.org</a>] <br>
Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 1:23 PM<br>
To: Kirk Hall <<a href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com" target="_blank">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</a><wbr>>; CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public@cabforum.org</a>>; Ryan Sleevi <<a href="mailto:sleevi@google.com" target="_blank">sleevi@google.com</a>><br>
Cc: Virginia Fournier <<a href="mailto:vfournier@apple.com" target="_blank">vfournier@apple.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [cabfpub] [EXTERNAL]Re: Ballot XXX: Update Discussion Period<br>
<br>
On 08/12/17 18:17, Kirk Hall via Public wrote:<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Just putting the question to you in the abstract – do you think we <br>
should have to restart a seven day discussion just to correct an <br>
obvious typo?<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
Let us say the answer to that question is "no". Then the obvious next question is: "how do you, the proponent of this idea, define 'obvious typo' in a way which does not open the door to substantive changes, or changes which people would argue about the substantiveness
of, and without inventing Yet Another Voting/Polling Mechanism"?<br>
<br>
Gerv<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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