<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Echoing Wayne, my understanding is that this is not directly about relying parties and/or subscribers, rather it sets rules around what a CA may include in their agreements.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The current text in the EV Guidelines says:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">"CAs MAY limit their liability as described in Section 9.8 of the Baseline Requirements except that a CA MAY NOT limit
its liability to Subscribers or Relying Parties for legally recognized and provable claims to a monetary amount less than two
thousand US dollars per Subscriber or Relying Party per EV Certificate.”</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Based on the prior comments from Moudrick and others, we suggest adding two new sentences at the end to make it clearer how things can be combined.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">"CAs MAY limit their liability as described in Section 9.8 of the Baseline Requirements except that a CA MAY NOT limit its liability to Subscribers or Relying Parties for legally recognized and provable claims to a monetary amount less than two thousand US dollars per Subscriber or Relying Party per EV Certificate. Notwithstanding the foregoing, a CA MAY limit its liability to Subscribers or Relying Parties for legally recognized and provable claims to an amount equal to, or greater than (1) one hundred thousand US dollars – aggregated across all claims, Subscribers, and Relying Parties – per EV Certificate or (2) five million US dollars – aggregated across all claims, Subscribers, and Relying Parties – for all EV Certificates issued by the CA during any continuous 12 month period. These limitations are notwithstanding anything in the Baseline Requirements purportedly to the contrary."<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">On the other hand, if there is agreement that this paragraph is unnecessary or has no effect, then I suggest that we amend this ballot to simply remove the whole paragraph.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks,</div><div class="">Peter</div><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 12, 2017, at 3:41 PM, Wayne Thayer via Public <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" class="">public@cabforum.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class="WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal">Virginia,<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">As Ryan stated, this requirement is about constraining the liability limits that CAs are allowed to place in their SA/RPA(s). If the CA isn’t permitted to enter in to an agreement with a liability limit lower than what is specified by
the CA/B Forum and enforced by the root programs via audits, then I fail to see how these limitations ‘are not required’?<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal">Wayne <o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in" class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">From: </span></b><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="">Public <<a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org" class="">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>> on behalf of Virginia Fournier via Public <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" class="">public@cabforum.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Reply-To: </b>Virginia Fournier <<a href="mailto:vfournier@apple.com" class="">vfournier@apple.com</a>>, CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" class="">public@cabforum.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Date: </b>Thursday, October 12, 2017 at 3:21 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To: </b>"Moudrick M. Dadashov" <<a href="mailto:md@ssc.lt" class="">md@ssc.lt</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Cc: </b>CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" class="">public@cabforum.org</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject: </b>Re: [cabfpub] Limitation of Liability and Indemnification<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">MD,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div><div class="MsoNormal">If you can get the Relying Parties and Subscribers to sign the agreement with the limitations of liability and indemnification in it, then they are bound. But the rest does not require them to agree to those provisions. It’s entirely
up to the Relying Parties and Subscribers to decide whether they accept those provisions or not.
<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">If you have any additional questions, you should discuss with your counsel.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Given that the limitations are not required, is there a need to proceed with this ballot?<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">
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</span><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Best regards,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Virginia Fournier<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">Senior Standards Counsel<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Heiti SC";color:#5E5E5E" class=""></span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> Apple Inc.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "MS Mincho", serif;" class="">☏</span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> 669-227-9595<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: "MS Mincho", serif;" class="">✉︎</span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""> <a href="mailto:vmf@apple.com" class="">vmf@apple.com</a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#4787FF" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">On Oct 12, 2017, at 3:11 PM, Moudrick M. Dadashov <<a href="mailto:md@ssc.lt" class="">md@ssc.lt</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-family:"Cambria",serif" class="">How about:<br class="">
<br class="">
BR/EVG --> Webtrust/ETSI schemes --> <b class="">Root Store schemes</b> --> Audit report --> CP/CPS --> Binding RPA/Subscriber Agreement</span><br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks,<br class="">
M.D<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">On 10/13/2017 12:58 AM, Ryan Sleevi via Public wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Virginia Fournier via Public <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank" class="">public@cabforum.org</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" class="" type="cite">
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class="">Message: 3<br class="">
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 00:18:33 +0300<br class="">
From: "Moudrick M. Dadashov" <</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class=""><a href="mailto:md@ssc.lt" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:10.5pt" class="">md@ssc.lt</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class="">><br class="">
To: Virginia Fournier via Public <</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class=""><a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:10.5pt" class="">public@cabforum.org</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class="">><br class="">
Subject: Re: [cabfpub] Limitation of Liability and Indemnification<br class="">
Message-ID: <</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class=""><a href="mailto:3b9e4544-5b18-7535-c712-1cf544d7d8c5@ssc.lt" target="_blank" class=""><span style="font-size:10.5pt" class="">3b9e4544-5b18-7535-c712-1cf544d7d8c5@ssc.lt</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class="">><br class="">
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"<br class="">
<br class="">
Could you please explain why you think BR and EV Requirements are only <br class="">
binding on members of the Forum?<br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks,<br class="">
M.D.</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class="">Hi M.D.</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class="">I can see why this would be hard to understand.</span><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class="">Entities who are not members of the Forum have nothing that would legally bind them to abide by those limitations. They aren’t members, so they aren’t bound by any of the Forum documents
- Bylaws, Baseline Requirements, etc. They don’t have a written agreement with the Forum to abide by certain requirements, so they’re not bound that way either. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Members of the Forum also aren't bound to abide by the Baseline Requirements.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Given this, does that resolve your concern?<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"> <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" class="" type="cite">
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif" class="">The best way to make the limitations binding on the Subscribers, Relying Parties, etc. would be for the CAs to enter into agreements with those parties, and try to get them to agree to the
limitations. But, again, they could just ignore the limitations.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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</blockquote>
<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">Perhaps phrased differently - the BRs describe what such agreements MUST and SHOULD contain. This is allowing a further modification (a MAY) to such agreements. The enforcement and requirement that CAs agreements do or do not contain such
provisions is done by the root stores that individual CAs partner with - not by the Forum.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal"><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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<div class=""><div class="MsoNormal">No member of the Forum is bound to abide by the Baseline Requirements by the Forum. The only document any member is bound to is to the IPR policy (as per the mutual contracts signed). <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<pre class="">_______________________________________________<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre class="">Public mailing list<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
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<pre class=""><a href="https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public" class="">https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public</a><o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
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