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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I guess I’d say to you, why should you and I (and the Forum) stand in the way of what (apparently) the Greek government has said is the preferred abbreviation?
I think the choice is up to the Greek government, not us.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">And see my prior message – there have been some notable departures from standards in the past, so we are not being consistent.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Peter Bowen [mailto:pzb@amzn.com]
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<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 17, 2017 5:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <public@cabforum.org><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Ryan Sleevi <sleevi@google.com>; Kirk Hall <Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] C=GR, C=UK exceptions in BRs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Kirk,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think it is worth taking a step back. What problem are we trying to solve? I feel like we are saying “I want to mail a letter to Greece but I want to write 'Hellenic Republic' or '<i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;background:#F8F9FA">Ellinikí
Dimokratía' </span></i>in the country line on the address rather than ‘Greece', even though the Universal Postal Union says international mail needs to say ‘Greece’”.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Peter<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mar 17, 2017, at 4:55 PM, Kirk Hall via Public <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org">public@cabforum.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">“***<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Given that ISO-3166 is actively maintained - thus your recollection is, unfortunately, not correct or accurate
- it would be useful to understand why you see deviating from this, and what problems you would believe it would solve.”<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">It appears you are unwilling to allow the BRs to deviate ISO-3166 – correct? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">If so, what other remedy is available to Dimitris to be able to use C=EL for Greece instead of C=GR?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Ryan
Sleevi [<a href="mailto:sleevi@google.com"><span style="color:purple">mailto:sleevi@google.com</span></a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, March 17, 2017 4:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Kirk Hall <<a href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com"><span style="color:purple">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</span></a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org"><span style="color:purple">public@cabforum.org</span></a>>; Dimitris Zacharopoulos <<a href="mailto:jimmy@it.auth.gr"><span style="color:purple">jimmy@it.auth.gr</span></a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [cabfpub] C=GR, C=UK exceptions in BRs</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Kirk,<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Could you highlight where I said that? It would be useful to understand what caused your confusion, as that's not what I said.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 7:33 PM, Kirk Hall <<a href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So there is your answer, Dimitris – Ryan thinks you must petition ISO. Good luck with that. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Ryan
Sleevi [mailto:<a href="mailto:sleevi@google.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">sleevi@google.com</span></a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, March 17, 2017 4:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Kirk Hall <<a href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</span></a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">public@cabforum.org</span></a>>; Dimitris Zacharopoulos <<a href="mailto:jimmy@it.auth.gr" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">jimmy@it.auth.gr</span></a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [cabfpub] C=GR, C=UK exceptions in BRs</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 6:55 PM, Kirk Hall <<a href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Ryan makes a good point – where there is a conflict between local law or practice (or desired practice) and the BRs, the best first step is to amend the BRs to
allow compliance with local law or practice (or desired practice).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">As I recall the country codes we are all stuck with were created in the 1960s for a purpose unrelated to SSL and digital certificates. There must have been a
good reason for representing the United Kingdom (England, Wales, Scotland (for now), and Northern Ireland) as “GB” when Northern Island (part of the UK) is not in Great Britain and UK is the more generally known acronym for the United Kingdom – but I can’t
imagine what the good reason was.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Instead of a ballot that presents a sweeping new structure for country names, or points to another new document, maybe we just create an Appendix to the BRs that
allows different country codes for Greece and the United Kingdom (as an alternative). We would endorse such a ballot.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Can you explain why?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">That is - Why you would endorse such a ballot? Why you believe the Forum should change?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I appreciate that you highlighted your unfamiliarity with the history of why these country codes exist, or what their values should be, as this serves as a useful reminder to highlight the notion of Chesterton's Fence, named after the poet-philosopher
G.K. Chesterton.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">While you can find many resources on this topic, perhaps it's worthwhile to quote the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">Wikipedia
entry on him</span></a> that explains this concept:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Chesterton's fence is the principle that reforms should not be made until the reasoning behind the existing state of affairs is understood. The quotation is from Chesterton’s 1929 book The Thing: Why I am a Catholic, in the chapter entitled
"The Drift from Domesticity": "In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us
say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away." To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer:
"If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it."<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think that we would be opposed to such a ballot until details can be provided that hopefully satisfy this simple request. In my reply, which it sounds like you agree with, I highlighted the problem that the existing Baseline Requirements
are trying to address. It's unclear to me whether you understood, but disagreed, with my statement, or whether you simply misread it. Given that ISO-3166 is actively maintained - thus your recollection is, unfortunately, not correct or accurate - it would
be useful to understand why you see deviating from this, and what problems you would believe it would solve.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I appreciate your thoughtful consideration of this very simple request.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">_______________________________________________<br>
Public mailing list<br>
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</span><a href="https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:purple">https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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