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<br>
Thank you all for the vivid discussion. I think there are simpler
questions to answer rather than going back reading history books. I
suppose the main argument is the following:<br>
<br>
Some Greek agencies, for non-technical reasons, might request C=EL
to identify Greece in OV or EV SSL Certificates. Despite "EL" not
being reserved in ISO-3166 and that the majority of Certificates
will use C=GR, IMO these rare cases for C=EL should be accepted. I
never asked myself why they would require that and I wouldn't try to
persuade them otherwise, since it is clear that Greece has been
officially using "EL". I guess this gives them "the right" to ask
C=EL if they so desire, no questions asked.<br>
<br>
And please, Peter, let's not dive into the discussion "what does the
Subject Information represent" and whether it is an official mailing
address or not. Some official mail correspondence from Greece (from
the ministry of foreign affairs) do what you just wrote, they use
"Hellenic Republic" and not "Greece" :)<br>
<br>
The same might apply to Government agencies in the UK. Kirk, thank
you for the support. If members have no strong objections about
these two exceptions, we might introduce them in a future ballot.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Dimitris.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 18/3/2017 2:06 πμ, Peter Bowen via
Public wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:A583ADE7-6C53-43A8-ADCC-2831DFBD296D@amzn.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Kirk,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I think it is worth taking a step back. What
problem are we trying to solve? I feel like we are saying “I
want to mail a letter to Greece but I want to write 'Hellenic
Republic' or '<i style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size:
13.09px; font-variant-ligatures: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: center; widows: 2; background-color: rgb(248, 249,
250);" class="">Ellinikí Dimokratía' </i>in the country line
on the address rather than ‘Greece', even though the Universal
Postal Union says international mail needs to say ‘Greece’”.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Thanks,</div>
<div class="">Peter</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Mar 17, 2017, at 4:55 PM, Kirk Hall via
Public <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" class="">public@cabforum.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">“***<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Given
that ISO-3166 is actively maintained - thus your
recollection is, unfortunately, not correct or accurate
- it would be useful to understand why you see deviating
from this, and what problems you would believe it would
solve.”<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">It
appears you are unwilling to allow the BRs to deviate
ISO-3166 – correct? <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">If so,
what other remedy is available to Dimitris to be able
to use C=EL for Greece instead of C=GR?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b
class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ryan Sleevi [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sleevi@google.com" style="color:
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:sleevi@google.com</a>]<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, March
17, 2017 4:36 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Kirk
Hall <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com"
style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"
class="">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>CA/Browser
Forum Public Discussion List <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" style="color:
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">public@cabforum.org</a>>;
Dimitris Zacharopoulos <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jimmy@it.auth.gr" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" class="">jimmy@it.auth.gr</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [cabfpub]
C=GR, C=UK exceptions in BRs<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Hi
Kirk,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Could
you highlight where I said that? It would be useful
to understand what caused your confusion, as that's
not what I said.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On
Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 7:33 PM, Kirk Hall <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com"
target="_blank" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" class="">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid;
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);
border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt;
margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">So there is your
answer, Dimitris – Ryan thinks you must
petition ISO. Good luck with that. </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
class="">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ryan
Sleevi [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sleevi@google.com"
target="_blank" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" class="">sleevi@google.com</a>]<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday,
March 17, 2017 4:06 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Kirk
Hall <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com"
target="_blank" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" class="">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>CA/Browser
Forum Public Discussion List <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:public@cabforum.org"
target="_blank" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" class="">public@cabforum.org</a>>;
Dimitris Zacharopoulos <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jimmy@it.auth.gr"
target="_blank" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" class="">jimmy@it.auth.gr</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[cabfpub] C=GR, C=UK exceptions in BRs</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"
class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class="">On Fri, Mar 17,
2017 at 6:55 PM, Kirk Hall <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com"
target="_blank" style="color: purple;
text-decoration: underline;" class="">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote style="border-style: none
none none solid; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204);
border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in
0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt
4.8pt;" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" class="">Ryan
makes a good point – where
there is a conflict between
local law or practice (or
desired practice) and the
BRs, the best first step is
to amend the BRs to allow
compliance with local law or
practice (or desired
practice).</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" class="">As I
recall the country codes we
are all stuck with were
created in the 1960s for a
purpose unrelated to SSL and
digital certificates. There
must have been a good reason
for representing the United
Kingdom (England, Wales,
Scotland (for now), and
Northern Ireland) as “GB”
when Northern Island (part
of the UK) is not in Great
Britain and UK is the more
generally known acronym for
the United Kingdom – but I
can’t imagine what the good
reason was.</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" class=""> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif;" class=""><span
style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);" class="">Instead
of a ballot that presents a
sweeping new structure for
country names, or points to
another new document, maybe
we just create an Appendix
to the BRs that allows
different country codes for
Greece and the United
Kingdom (as an
alternative). We would
endorse such a ballot.</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class="">Can you explain
why?<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class="">That is - Why you
would endorse such a ballot? Why
you believe the Forum should
change?<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class="">I appreciate that
you highlighted your unfamiliarity
with the history of why these
country codes exist, or what their
values should be, as this serves
as a useful reminder to highlight
the notion of Chesterton's Fence,
named after the poet-philosopher
G.K. Chesterton.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class="">While you can
find many resources on this topic,
perhaps it's worthwhile to quote
the<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton"
target="_blank" style="color:
purple; text-decoration:
underline;" class="">Wikipedia
entry on him</a> that explains
this concept:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class="">Chesterton's
fence is the principle that
reforms should not be made until
the reasoning behind the existing
state of affairs is understood.
The quotation is from Chesterton’s
1929 book The Thing: Why I am a
Catholic, in the chapter entitled
"The Drift from Domesticity": "In
the matter of reforming things, as
distinct from deforming them,
there is one plain and simple
principle; a principle which will
probably be called a paradox.
There exists in such a case a
certain institution or law; let us
say, for the sake of simplicity, a
fence or gate erected across a
road. The more modern type of
reformer goes gaily up to it and
says, “I don’t see the use of
this; let us clear it away." To
which the more intelligent type of
reformer will do well to answer:
"If you don’t see the use of it, I
certainly won’t let you clear it
away. Go away and think. Then,
when you can come back and tell me
that you do see the use of it, I
may allow you to destroy it."<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class="">I think that we
would be opposed to such a ballot
until details can be provided that
hopefully satisfy this simple
request. In my reply, which it
sounds like you agree with, I
highlighted the problem that the
existing Baseline Requirements are
trying to address. It's unclear to
me whether you understood, but
disagreed, with my statement, or
whether you simply misread it.
Given that ISO-3166 is actively
maintained - thus your
recollection is, unfortunately,
not correct or accurate - it would
be useful to understand why you
see deviating from this, and what
problems you would believe it
would solve.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif;" class="">I appreciate your
thoughtful consideration of this
very simple request.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
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