<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">The 56% number is exactly what you said — primary website (“www.”) for each domain. Understanding how many certs are out there is very hard as many of the certs you describe are probably only used on private networks, so are never seen by things that submit to CT logs.</div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 8, 2017, at 10:09 PM, Jeremy Rowley via Public <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" class="">public@cabforum.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Manual rotation is reasonable for these enterprises at 3 years. With 30,000 certs spread over multiple organizations, manual rotation in one year increments is not yet feasible, although they are working towards automation. Again, I do not think the 56% number is accurate. I would like to see more information on how this data was gathered as I suspect it came from only evaluating the primary website of each of these organizations rather than the distribution of certificate lifecycles thoughout the organization’s infrastructure. Our initial internal evaluation shows the average lifecycle at two years when looking at the certificates from an organization perspective. I should have more data shortly. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><a name="_MailEndCompose" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></a></div><span class=""></span><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Eric Mill [<a href="mailto:eric@konklone.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:eric@konklone.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, February 8, 2017 8:58 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>CA/Browser Forum Public Discussion List <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">public@cabforum.org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Jeremy Rowley <<a href="mailto:jeremy.rowley@digicert.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jeremy.rowley@digicert.com</a>>; Ryan Sleevi <<a href="mailto:sleevi@google.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">sleevi@google.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [cabfpub] Draft Ballot 185 (2) - Limiting the Lifetime of Certificates<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 8:50 PM, Ryan Sleevi via Public <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">public@cabforum.org</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="gmail-">On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Jeremy Rowley <<a href="mailto:jeremy.rowley@digicert.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jeremy.rowley@digicert.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Sort of. I’d say the CAs have several automated tools available and are continuously improving on them to fit various subscriber use cases, but we’re looking at delays in deployment as customers fit these tools into their work flows, network requirements, and provisioning obstacles. I think we’re on the path towards shorter validity periods, but trying to get most large customers to adopt auto-deployment for their infrastructure by May 2018 will be nearly impossible.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">I basically want to say something similar to Ryan's reply -- a 1-year limit on certificates should not be seen (by CAs or subscribers) as tantamount to a requirement to adopt auto-deployment for their infrastructure. Manual rotation every year is reasonable, and I've seen lots of individuals and enterprises do exactly that.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">I also highly doubt that the 56% of the Alexa Top 1000 that use certs with 13-month-or-less timelines are all automating their cert renewal. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">1 year is within the tolerance zone for manual rotation. But if it starts adding some friction at scale to huge enterprises with many thousands of manually deployed certificates, that they're used to rotating every 2-3 years, well, that is the intended (positive) effect.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">-- Eric<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">But one year (and change) certs are useful precisely because they _don't_ require automatic deployment. That is, the premise is that an action once every 13 months (or even 5,000 or 10,000 of those, once every 13 months - or spread out over 13 months) is a humanly possible task that absolutely does not require automation.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Automation improves the experience, but it is not, say, a proposal for 3 month certs - a solution that is _only_ realistically practical with automation.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Perhaps that's the disagreement - that, much like TLS configuration, requiring to update a server once a year is not unreasonable. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; 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