<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Kirk,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I can comment on <a href="http://amazonaws.com" class="">amazonaws.com</a>. AWS only has three CAs we use - Symantec/VeriSign, DigiCert, and Amazon. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Here are some certificates that were not authorized by the domain registrant:</div><div class=""><a href="https://crt.sh/?id=31536432" class="">https://crt.sh/?id=31536432</a> (StartCom)</div><div class=""><a href="https://crt.sh/?id=30860174" class="">https://crt.sh/?id=30860174</a> (WoSign)</div><div class=""></div><div class=""><a href="https://crt.sh/?id=30103632" class="">https://crt.sh/?id=30103632</a> (GlobalSign)</div><div class=""><a href="https://crt.sh/?id=42702005" class="">https://crt.sh/?id=42702005</a> (GeoTrust)</div><div class=""><a href="https://crt.sh/?id=3608723" class="">https://crt.sh/?id=3608723</a> (Vodafone)</div><div class=""><a href="https://crt.sh/?id=8271636" class="">https://crt.sh/?id=8271636</a> (<span style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: 'Courier New', sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">Agencia Catalana de Certificacio)</span></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I don’t believe these were ordered by people falling into either of the categories you list — they were not employees nor were they fraudsters. I am sure the CAs followed one of the 3.2.2.4 methods and probably even followed a method that will still be allowed after ballot 169 comes into force. However, I’m 100% confident that the domain owner would prefer to have all certificates using FQDNs and Wildcard DNs under the domain follow corporate policies.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Does that help?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks,</div><div class="">Peter</div><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 24, 2016, at 2:04 PM, Kirk Hall via Public <<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" class="">public@cabforum.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Thanks Ryan – that is helpful.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Can you tell us who ordered the two certificates you listed? By an employee, or by a fraudster?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">In what way was the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://googleusercontent.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">googleusercontent.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>cert “not authorized”?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ryan Sleevi [<a href="mailto:sleevi@google.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">mailto:sleevi@google.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, October 24, 2016 1:58 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Kirk Hall <<a href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Jeremy Rowley <<a href="mailto:jeremy.rowley@digicert.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">jeremy.rowley@digicert.com</a>>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">public@cabforum.org</a><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [cabfpub] Continuing the discussion on CAA<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Kirk Hall <<a href="mailto:Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Kirk.Hall@entrustdatacard.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Ryan, your response is cryptic and confusing. I think we are wasting time.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">I literally and specifically gave you multiple examples - both of where CAA *could have* prevented unauthorized issuance to third parties and where CAA *has* prevented unauthorized issuace to third parties, with specific domain names and CAs.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">I cannot help you if you are unable to participate in a technical discussion, but it's very clear that the bar is not "convince you", but "explain to you" - and the latter is something that's only possible if you're honestly interested in learning, which, at this point, I can only conclude is yet another attempt to avoid productive discussions.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Can you please avoid quoting other stuff (not sure what it proves or how it helps)</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">It shows me attempting to honestly engage in your request that I "restate whatever evidence you have"<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">and just lay out on the Public list your examples in simple English of cases where CAA would have prevented misissuance of a certificate to a fraudster not associated with the organization that owns or controls the domain requested? I don’t believe this has explicitly been discussed on the Public list before.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">And yet again, you're disrespectfully changing the conversation when it's been pointed out you're mistaken.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">In this case, after providing you the examples you specifically claimed were absent, and reminding you of specific conversations you were part of in which they were answered, you've now suggested that they're insufficient because they weren't discussed on the public list. As the Chair, this does not bode well at all for the future of the Forum that you would engage in such tactics so brazenly.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">I will attempt to repeat for you:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><a href="http://googleusercontent.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">googleusercontent.com</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">- Certs were not authorized, but conformed to 3.2.2.4. They were issued.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">- We added CAA<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">- Certs are prevented now<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><a href="http://amazonaws.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">amazonaws.com</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">- Certs were not authorized, but conformed to 3.2.2.4. They were issued.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">- Amazon has not added CAA<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">- Unauthorized certs are still possible<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Microsoft Azure<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">- Microsoft expressed repeatedly concerns with 3.2.2.4 about certs that were not authorized being issued.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">I'm not sure how much simpler I can make it for you. But I'm certainly unwilling, at this point, to continue to engage with you on this topic, considering how dismissive you've been throughout the 2.5 years that we've been discussing this. Perhaps it would be better if someone more technically capable engaged on your behalf, so we can at least have productive discussions about where to draw the line between technical and policy solutions.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Public mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="mailto:Public@cabforum.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">Public@cabforum.org</a><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><a href="https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public</a></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>