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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It was my suggestion that we have a discussion on next week’s call to try and get some consensus on these issues. I didn’t think a week was too much time to wait on a non-critical issue such as this. Let’s keep the discussion civil and sort things out on the next call (Dec 11<sup>th</sup>).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thanks,<br>Dean<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> public-bounces@cabforum.org [mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Moudrick M. Dadashov<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 03, 2014 12:46 PM<br><b>To:</b> Ryan Sleevi; Jeremy Rowley<br><b>Cc:</b> CABFPub<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] Ballot 142 - Elimination of EV Insurance Requirement<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>I fully agree with Ryan, we should move on with Gerv's proposal (ballot 142). Indeed, elimination of insurance is a separate issue.<br><br>That said, I also support Kirk's efforts on financial stability, possibly business continuity and cancellation provisions. <br><br><span style='color:windowtext'>In addition to the ballot 141, I'm working with Kirk on financial responsibility, including making arrangements to continue its CRLs and OCSP responders and its vetting records for certificates issued, after the CA terminates its operations.</span><br><br>Thanks,<br>M.D.<br><br>On 12/3/2014 4:48 PM, Ryan Sleevi wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks for pointing this out Jeremy. Looks like my calendar got confused by the invites sent to the management list. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In that case, it's less clear to me where we are at with this discussion. Kirk has suggested twice we delay this discussion until Thursday, but if our calls are not this Thursday, t hen such a delay seems unnecessary.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>For an issue that has been presented as causing ongoing pain for CAs (c.f. <a href="https://cabforum.org/pipermail/public/2014-October/004148.html">https://cabforum.org/pipermail/public/2014-October/004148.html</a> ), and that we should vote to make SOME progress on it, I feel like delaying up to another month (a week for a call, up to a week for any ballot modifications, a week for review, and a week for voting) would be unwise.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 2:38 PM, Jeremy Rowley <<a href="mailto:jeremy.rowley@digicert.com" target="_blank">jeremy.rowley@digicert.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Just to clarify - this week is not the CAB Forum call – it’s the working group calls. Next week is the Forum call.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><a name="14a10968aa8458a0__MailEndCompose"><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ryan Sleevi<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 3, 2014 7:25 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:kirk_hall@trendmicro.com" target="_blank">kirk_hall@trendmicro.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b> CABFPub<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] Ballot 142 - Elimination of EV Insurance Requirement</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 2:44 AM, <a href="mailto:kirk_hall@trendmicro.com" target="_blank">kirk_hall@trendmicro.com</a> <<a href="mailto:kirk_hall@trendmicro.com" target="_blank">kirk_hall@trendmicro.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p>So it looks like there were hurt feelings on both parts – I was unhappy that Mozilla would not honor my request for time to post my ballot on the issue (which covered both insurance and new financial responsibility requirements, which are linked in my mind, as previously explained), and Gerv was unhappy that I would not post his ballot for him upon request. (Others could have posted the ballot for Gerv as well.)<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>To move past that, I’ll <u>remove</u> Section 1 of my Ballot (relating to elimination of the EV insurance requirement) so Gerv’s ballot will be the exclusive one on that topic. Both ballots can proceed together, but I would urge members to vote yes on both, as we are removing one intended financial responsibility safeguard (EV insurance, which we have come to see is not very effective) and should substitute another more valuable financial responsibility safeguard (limiting a CA’s ability to disclaim all liability for its mis-issued certs that cause damage to subscribers and the public). <o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>The new requirement in Ballot certainly is not a "pointless barrier to entry" as suggested below, but a very valuable safeguard to the public that will help reinforce the value of public CAs over self-signed certs and should be a no-brainer for browsers -- it clearly protects their users from CA errors -- and very valuable for CAs as well to establish their worth. <o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p><p>I'll be happy to discuss this further on our call Thursday and on this list.<o:p></o:p></p><p> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Regrettably, I won't be able to make this Thursday's call. I think the way these ballots have been handled is deeply unfortunate, and I'm disappointed that I won't be able to make the discussion on how we to avoid these sort of situations of competing interests in the future.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>To the ballots at hand, it should come as no surprise that we share Gerv's concerns that this is, indeed, a "pointless barrier to entry" as it has been called. We do not believe it will provide any meaningful protection for our users - or indeed, for ANY users - from CA errors, as Kirk has suggested, and that's a point we've repeatedly expressed and discussed in the past, on the list and on the calls.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>As I'll be unable to make and discuss these points further - although I think at this point it's clear that the discussion on adding liabilities is not meaningfully or productively making progress - I'd like to request that whomever is taking minutes to take detailed minutes so that the discussion can be reviewed following the call.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Ryan<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Public mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:Public@cabforum.org">Public@cabforum.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public">https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>