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    1) This isn't a path validation.  Instead, it's an assertion of
    compliance with a particular section of the BRs.  An assertion of
    compliance could be required in the intermediate as well, but, for
    the time-being, the discussion is focused solely on assertions made
    in end-entity certificates.  Even if the policy OID were required
    for intermediates, rekeys are not necessarily required since the
    Forum has a precedent of grandfathering in existing certificates.<br>
    <br>
    2) I believe that point is a red-herring.  Section 11 of the BRs has
    not materially changed since adoption of the BRs. Because of that,
    the notBefore date is a "close enough" approximation of compliance. 
    Besides, Section 11.2 of the BRs has always referred to validation
    of the legal existence. An assertion of validating the legal
    existence is sufficient to distinguish between Amazon.com the
    company and Amazon.com the domain name.  <br>
    <br>
    Distinguishing between ETSI and Webtrust audited CAs would be an
    interesting project, but I think it's out of scope for the current
    discussion.<br>
    <br>
    3) I think this is speculation.  Since passage of the BRs, most CAs
    seem to perform similar or nearly identical validation on
    organizations. Creating more uniform rules about validation of
    entities was one of the purposes in adopting the BRs. From reviewing
    CPSs, I think the BRs were successful at this goal.  There may not
    be a value for the browsers, but I think there are other entities
    that may disagree.  To Dean's point, I think everyone recognizes
    that requiring assertion of the BR OID is not something we are
    proposing for the benefit of the browsers.  Instead, we support it
    in favor of those monitoring compliance with section 9 and 11 of the
    BRs and those relying parties who are also interested in evaluating
    the DV/OV/IV landscape. <br>
    <br>
    <div>Jeremy<br>
    </div>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/6/2014 8:02 PM, Ryan Sleevi
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CACvaWvZXDYVnfNw53LP-LJQVi6t2+uar9KWzDztKJxpuNSbbCg@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <div dir="ltr">Jeremy,
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>1) The technical means is dependent on how the intermediate
          _and root_ CAs have been provisioned. As a CA offering EV
          certificates, no doubt you're aware and familiar with Section
          4.2.1.4 and the algorithm described in Section 6.1 of RFC5280,
          which at best may be summarized as "The policy needs to appear
          in the intermediate/root"</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>That is, a policy appearing ONLY in a leaf is by no means
          an expression of a conforming RFC5280 policy, in that the
          intermediate CA has not been authorized to issue such
          certificates by policy. While neither a violation of RFC5280
          either (since one may believe that there exist alternative
          paths that the policy IS valid for), when it comes to
          programatic validation under the existing hierarchy, a relying
          party CANNOT apply the RFC5280 path validation to such an
          "after-the-fact" OID</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>2) Your comment about Section 11.2 makes me believe you've
          misunderstood the point I've made in several fora regarding
          the technical value of such a policy expression. Expressing BR
          compliance is an act without meaning, since there are multiple
          versions of the BRs (with different technical and procedural
          requirements), and which are audited under different regimes
          (ETSI, WebTrust) which themselves are also versioned and cover
          different technical aspects.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>These permutations are what meaningfully express the
          issuance policies and practices of a CA - that is, how many
          are conforming with BR 1.1.9 using WebTrust vs those
          conforming to BR 1.1.7 using ETSI, etc.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>3) The distinction between DV (which is to say, the bare
          minimum of BR requirements) and OV (which exists as a
          marketing hodge-podge of optional requirements included in the
          BRs, but no one set mandating what OV is) is, at it's core, a
          distinction that varies between CA to CA, and for which no
          browser expressed support for during our most recent F2F. Just
          compare Section 9.3.1 with the language in Section 9.2 to see
          that there's a mismatch between the requirements of the
          fields.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Again, believing there to be NO value in the expression of
          a BR OID, and believing that mandating the presence of the
          OID, when combined with the language in Section 9.3.1, would
          have the net-effect of introducing more restrictions on the
          ability of CAs to provide BR-compliant certs, this is not
          something we're really keen on.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Cheers,</div>
        <div>Ryan</div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Jeremy
          Rowley <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:jeremy.rowley@digicert.com" target="_blank">jeremy.rowley@digicert.com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Technical
                    means exist to express the policy since the OIDs are
                    included in the certificate policy.  Plus, the
                    policy is fairly stable as section 11.2 has not had
                    substantial changes since adoption of the baseline
                    requirements.  </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">How
                    would it require a rekeying of every CA’s hierarchy
                    if the policy were only in the end entity
                    certificate?  At that point, it’s only a profile
                    change.  </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    name="148e8231547c4e29__MailEndCompose"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></a></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org"
                      target="_blank">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>
                    [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org"
                      target="_blank">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>]
                    <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ryan Sleevi<br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 6, 2014 6:51 PM</span></p>
                <div>
                  <div class="h5"><br>
                    <b>To:</b> Dean Coclin<br>
                    <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public@cabforum.org</a><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] OIDs for DV and OV</div>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div class="h5">
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Dean,</p>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">You have yet to demonstrate
                          how this would not require a complete rekeying
                          of every CA's hierarchy, given the nature of
                          policy OIDs, to ultimately express a
                          conformance to a policy that is not stable in
                          time, nor consistently audited.</p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">Putting aside whether or
                          not you see value in such an expression of
                          policy, it's more important to just establish
                          whether or not the means to technically
                          express such a policy exist and are
                          reasonable. Then and only then is it useful to
                          discuss whether we should.</p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at
                          12:17 PM, Dean Coclin <<a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:Dean_Coclin@symantec.com"
                            target="_blank">Dean_Coclin@symantec.com</a>>
                          wrote:</p>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">So
                                I get the part that Chrome (and likely
                                other browsers in the CA/B forum) don’t
                                intend to distinguish DV and OV certs in
                                any way. Got that. Not a point of
                                contention. In fact, I knew that when I
                                started this thread.  So no need to go
                                down that path anymore. Having different
                                OIDs does not oblige a browser do
                                anything.
                              </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
                                would have expected more negative
                                commentary from CAs but so far there has
                                been none. And only 1 browser has chimed
                                in.</span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">However,
                                browsers are not the only application
                                that use SSL certificates. There are
                                others out there and I distinctly recall
                                a conversation about 2-3 years ago where
                                Paypal (a CA/B member) explicitly asked
                                that these OIDs be mandatory. Brad
                                stated that their security group had
                                deemed DV certs to be a security threat
                                to their ecosystem and wanted an easy
                                programmatic way to distinguish them. At
                                the time, there was some pushback (I
                                don’t believe from browsers) and the
                                OIDs ended up being optional.
                              </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It
                                looks as if some CAs do use OIDs in
                                their DV and OV certs but some don’t use
                                the CA/B Forum OIDs (rather their own).
                                This makes it difficult to apply a
                                uniform decision process.
                              </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Certs
                                conforming to policy and issued
                                correctly are one aspect that some folks
                                are looking for. The type of certificate
                                is another. One that has not been vetted
                                is different from one that has some
                                vetting completed (other security issues
                                being equal). Perhaps that benefit is
                                not tangible to some but it certainly is
                                to others. I can spew some stats on DV
                                cert use and fraud but that will just
                                muddle this thread so I’ll save it for
                                another day.
                              </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Why
                                do browsers care one way or the other if
                                other parties want to make this
                                distinction? The CA/B Forum has defined
                                different baseline standards for these
                                types of certs. Why not make
                                transparency around those standards easy
                                for those that want to draw a
                                distinction?</span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Certainly
                                would love to hear from some other
                                interested parties.</span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks,</span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Dean</span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
                                Ryan Sleevi [mailto:<a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="mailto:sleevi@google.com"
                                  target="_blank">sleevi@google.com</a>]
                                <br>
                                <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 02, 2014
                                8:56 PM</span></p>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                  <b>To:</b> Dean Coclin<br>
                                  <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:public@cabforum.org"
                                    target="_blank">public@cabforum.org</a><br>
                                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] OIDs for
                                  DV and OV</p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Oct
                                        2, 2014 at 5:31 PM, Dean Coclin
                                        <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          href="mailto:Dean_Coclin@symantec.com"
                                          target="_blank">Dean_Coclin@symantec.com</a>>
                                        wrote:</p>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks
                                              for the response and
                                              pointers. I’ve read
                                              through the threads but
                                              still have additional
                                              questions/comments. I’ll
                                              readily admit that I don’t
                                              understand all the
                                              commentary in the Mozilla
                                              threads so I apologize if
                                              these questions sound
                                              somewhat naïve. Happy to
                                              be educated:</span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">You've
                                            heard repeatedly from
                                            several browsers about an
                                            explicit non-goal of
                                            distinguishing DV and OV. As
                                            the Forum is comprised of
                                            CAs and Browsers, do we have
                                            any Browsers that wish to
                                            make such a distinction? If
                                            not, it would be wholly
                                            inappropriate for the Forum
                                            to require it.</p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">>>I
                                              haven’t heard of any
                                              browsers that want to make
                                              that distinction (yet). It
                                              is my understanding that
                                              the Forum BRs do require
                                              an OID for EV certs. So
                                              why is it “inappropriate”
                                              for the Forum to require
                                              OIDs for DV/OV?</span></p>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">Browsers
                                          have agreed to make a
                                          distinction between EV and
                                          !EV, so have required there be
                                          a way to detect that.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">Browsers
                                          have not agreed that there is
                                          a distinction between DV or
                                          OV, nor is there a need to
                                          detect the difference.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">That the
                                          browsers have required
                                          (effectively all stores at
                                          this point, AFAIK) is that the
                                          root program members be BR
                                          compliant. So any new certs
                                          issued (technically,
                                          independent of the notBefore,
                                          and we know CAs regularly
                                          backdate from time of
                                          issuance, but it's a rough
                                          heuristic) are, by definition,
                                          BR compliant.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <blockquote
                                        style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                        #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
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6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">If
                                              there are non-browser
                                              relying parties interested
                                              in such distinctions, the
                                              CA can always provide such
                                              distinctions themselves.</p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">>>Can
                                                you elaborate on what
                                                you mean by this? If
                                                there’s another way to
                                                accomplish the end
                                                result, happy to explore
                                                further. But it would
                                                have to be uniform among
                                                all CAs that issue these
                                                certs.</span></p>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">I don't see
                                          why it needs to be uniform.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                          The requirement as to what
                                          shape it takes is dictated by
                                          the relying party
                                          applications.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">The
                                          browsers, as relying party
                                          applications, do not and have
                                          not yet cared about the shape
                                          of DV and OV, and as per our
                                          recent F2F, aren't really keen
                                          to either.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">So having
                                          the browsers dictate the shape
                                          of the solution seems
                                          unnecessary, and an issue for
                                          these relying party
                                          applications (e.g. Netcraft)
                                          to work with CAs.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <blockquote
                                        style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                        #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
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6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">As
                                              someone very keen on
                                              programatic checks and
                                              detection for misissuance,
                                              there's no question that
                                              this would NOT
                                              meaningfully help address
                                              the concerns we see.</p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">>>I
                                                wasn’t suggesting that
                                                this addition would in
                                                any way help you with
                                                your programmatic checks
                                                for mis-issuance. 
                                                Rather, it would make
                                                the task for
                                                organizations like
                                                Netcraft, EFF or others
                                                that tabulate statistics
                                                on various types of
                                                certificates easier to
                                                do. Is that not the
                                                case?</span></p>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">Not really.
                                          These organizations are
                                          interested in the same
                                          discussions and distinctions
                                          we are - what are the
                                          certificates being issued and
                                          do they conform to the
                                          policies that they're supposed
                                          to.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">We've
                                          established that there's no
                                          'uniform' definition of what
                                          constitutes OV, only that the
                                          BR requires certain vetting
                                          steps for certain subject
                                          fields that are OPTIONAL. CAs
                                          have taken these and marketed
                                          them as OV, but there's no
                                          such distinction as a level,
                                          nor a particular profile
                                          spelled out in the appendices
                                          as to what constitutes a "DV"
                                          vs "OV".</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">If that was
                                          the only degree of distinction
                                          required, it's just as easy as
                                          checking the Subject fields
                                          for any of the OPTIONAL
                                          fields.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <blockquote
                                        style="border:none;border-left:solid
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6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal">That
                                              is, there would need to be
                                              an OID _per revision_ of
                                              the BRs, to indicate
                                              "which" version of the BRs
                                              something was complying
                                              to. </p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">>>Fully
                                                admit that I don’t
                                                understand how this
                                                works. But wouldn’t that
                                                also be the case for EV
                                                (which currently
                                                requires this OID)?</span></p>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">YES! And
                                          it's one of the many reasons
                                          why EV is somewhat muddled for
                                          programatic checks or
                                          distinctions. And yet this is
                                          also necessary because any
                                          change in policy, by
                                          definition, necessitates a
                                          change in OID to
                                          (meaningfully) reflect that.
                                          And that constitutes rolling a
                                          new hierarchy (and updating
                                          browsers' lists of recognized
                                          EV OIDs)</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <blockquote
                                        style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                        #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in
                                        0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I’m
                                                just trying to suggest a
                                                 way that someone can
                                                say: X is a DV cert, Y
                                                is an OV cert, Z is an
                                                EV cert without a doubt.
                                                If OIDs are not the
                                                place to do that, is
                                                there another mechanism
                                                available?<br>
                                                I’m sure you are
                                                familiar with Ryan
                                                Hurst’s blog on how
                                                difficult the task
                                                currently is.</span></p>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">I am
                                          (you're talking about
                                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                            href="http://unmitigatedrisk.com/?p=203"
                                            target="_blank">http://unmitigatedrisk.com/?p=203</a>
                                          in particular). But I'm also
                                          not supportive of encouraging
                                          a distinction that we neither
                                          recognize nor have plans to
                                          recognize, and especially not
                                          supportive of mandating such
                                          distinctions.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">This is
                                          especially true, as these
                                          distinctions don't offer any
                                          tangible security benefits to
                                          the Web, as previously
                                          discussed.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">If we go to
                                          the point of mandating
                                          anything additional in
                                          certificates, which requires a
                                          variety of changes in
                                          processes, profiles, and
                                          CPSes, I want it to have
                                          meaningful security value.
                                          This change - which, as has
                                          been shown by the development
                                          of audit standards and then
                                          the eventual incorporation of
                                          those audit standards into the
                                          root programs, and then
                                          FINALLY the
                                          <b>enforcement</b> of those
                                          audit standards of the root
                                          programs - would take several
                                          years, at BEST, to deploy, and
                                          would communicate nothing of
                                          actionable value. It's a hard
                                          sell.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <blockquote
                                        style="border:none;border-left:solid
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6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><br>
                                                Thanks,<br>
                                                Dean</span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
                                                <a
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>
                                                [mailto:<a
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>]
                                                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ryan
                                                Sleevi<br>
                                                <b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
                                                October 02, 2014 3:37 PM<br>
                                                <b>To:</b> Dean Coclin<br>
                                                <b>Cc:</b> <a
                                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public@cabforum.org</a><br>
                                                <b>Subject:</b> Re:
                                                [cabfpub] OIDs for DV
                                                and OV</span></p>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                <div>
                                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <p
                                                        class="MsoNormal">On
                                                        Thu, Oct 2, 2014
                                                        at 10:33 AM,
                                                        Dean Coclin <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Dean_Coclin@symantec.com"
                                                          target="_blank">Dean_Coclin@symantec.com</a>>
                                                        wrote:</p>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Further
                                                          to today’s
                                                          discussion on
                                                          our call, I’d
                                                          like to get
                                                          more feedback
                                                          on a proposal
                                                          to make a
                                                          unique
                                                          standardized
                                                          OID mandatory
                                                          for DV and OV
                                                          certificates
                                                          in the
                                                          Baseline
                                                          Requirements.
                                                          Currently we
                                                          have a
                                                          mandatory OID
                                                          for EV
                                                          certificates
                                                          but optional
                                                          for OV and
                                                          DV.  This
                                                          makes things
                                                          difficult for
                                                          at least two
                                                          groups of
                                                          constituents:</p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          <p>1.<span
                                                          style="font-size:7.0pt">      
                                                          </span>Relying
                                                          parties that
                                                          would like to
                                                          distinguish
                                                          between these
                                                          certificates</p>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">You've
                                                          heard
                                                          repeatedly
                                                          from several
                                                          browsers about
                                                          an explicit
                                                          non-goal of
                                                          distinguishing
                                                          DV and OV. As
                                                          the Forum is
                                                          comprised of
                                                          CAs and
                                                          Browsers, do
                                                          we have have
                                                          any Browsers
                                                          that wish to
                                                          make such a
                                                          distinction?</p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">If
                                                          not, it would
                                                          be wholly
                                                          inappropriate
                                                          for the Forum
                                                          to require it.
                                                          If there are
                                                          non-browser
                                                          relying
                                                          parties
                                                          interested in
                                                          such
                                                          distinctions,
                                                          the CA can
                                                          always provide
                                                          such
                                                          distinctions
                                                          themselves.</p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <blockquote
                                                        style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                                        #cccccc
                                                        1.0pt;padding:0in
                                                        0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p>2.<span
                                                          style="font-size:7.0pt">      
                                                          </span>Analysts
                                                          that report on
                                                          SSL
                                                          certificate
                                                          data who have
                                                          had to issue
                                                          revised
                                                          reports
                                                          because of
                                                          cert
                                                          misclassification</p>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </blockquote>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">As
                                                          mentioned on
                                                          the call, this
                                                          has been
                                                          discussed with
                                                          Mozilla in the
                                                          past - <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.dev.security.policy/-mCAK5zfhFQ/hEOQK-ubGRcJ"
target="_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.dev.security.policy/-mCAK5zfhFQ/hEOQK-ubGRcJ</a></p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">As
                                                          someone very
                                                          keen on
                                                          programatic
                                                          checks and
                                                          detection for
                                                          misissuance,
                                                          there's no
                                                          question that
                                                          this would NOT
                                                          meaningfully
                                                          help address
                                                          the concerns
                                                          we see.</p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">That
                                                          is, there
                                                          would need to
                                                          be an OID _per
                                                          revision_ of
                                                          the BRs, to
                                                          indicate
                                                          "which"
                                                          version of the
                                                          BRs something
                                                          was complying
                                                          to. </p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">I
                                                          would hope
                                                          that <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.dev.security.policy/-mCAK5zfhFQ/2tRUS444krwJ"
target="_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.dev.security.policy/-mCAK5zfhFQ/2tRUS444krwJ</a>
                                                          would capture
                                                          some of these
                                                          concerns more
                                                          fully.</p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">Finally,
                                                          to do anything
                                                          meaningful
                                                          with this in
                                                          all major
                                                          clients, it
                                                          would require
                                                          that CAs redo
                                                          their
                                                          certificate
                                                          hierarchy, as
                                                          policy OIDs
                                                          are inherited.
                                                          That's a silly
                                                          thing,
                                                          especially
                                                          when CAs are
                                                          still
                                                          struggling to
                                                          migrate from
                                                          SHA-1 to
                                                          SHA-256 in
                                                          their
                                                          intermediates.</p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <blockquote
                                                        style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                                        #cccccc
                                                        1.0pt;padding:0in
                                                        0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">My
                                                          proposal is
                                                          for CAs to put
                                                          in OID X if
                                                          it’s a DV
                                                          certificate
                                                          and OID Y if
                                                          it’s an OV
                                                          certificate.</p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">As
                                                          Rick reminded
                                                          me on the
                                                          call, we
                                                          currently have
                                                          something like
                                                          this for EV
                                                          certificates
                                                          (except that
                                                          CAs are free
                                                          to use the
                                                          standard OID
                                                          or define one
                                                          of their own).</p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">I’d
                                                          like to hear
                                                          pros/cons of
                                                          this. Ryan S
                                                          indicated that
                                                          Google would
                                                          not support
                                                          such a
                                                          proposal but
                                                          we didn’t have
                                                          time to
                                                          discuss the
                                                          reasons.</p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal">I’m
                                                          sure there are
                                                          both technical
                                                          and policy
                                                          reasons.
                                                          Personally I’d
                                                          like to focus
                                                          on the latter
                                                          but remarks on
                                                          both are
                                                          welcome. This
                                                          proposal
                                                          doesn’t
                                                          require anyone
                                                          to do anything
                                                          with this data
                                                          (i.e relying
                                                          parties can
                                                          choose whether
                                                          or not to
                                                          utilize it).</p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                                          Thanks,<br>
                                                          Dean</p>
                                                          <p> </p>
                                                          <p> </p>
                                                          <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <p
                                                          class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                                                          Public mailing
                                                          list<br>
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Public@cabforum.org" target="_blank">Public@cabforum.org</a><br>
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public" target="_blank">https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public</a></p>
                                                      </blockquote>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </blockquote>
                                    </div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
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