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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">[Getting pretty deep in law stuff here] If a company with insurance goes bankrupt, that does not cancel the insurance and it generally will continue to cover the company,
even in bankruptcy. However, the insurance is only for protection of the company, not claimants – if claimants benefit at all, it is only indirectly (if the insurer has to pay the claim after defending the company). The claims may get caught up in the bankruptcy
proceeding as well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The one thing I can clearly tell you is – if the insurance has policy limits of, say, $5 million, that does NOT create a pot of $5 million in cash that sits in the bankruptcy
court to be handed out to claimants. Each claim will still be defended and defeated by the insurer, if possible, until the money runs out.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">In Diginotar, the insurer apparently avoided all liability (even to injured third parties) because intentional bad acts by Diginotar cancelled the coverage – so Diginotar
would be punished and get no protection or coverage from the insurer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> public-bounces@cabforum.org [mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Wilson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 05, 2014 12:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Phillip Hallam-Baker'<br>
<b>Cc:</b> public@cabforum.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But if the policy insures the entity itself, as has been argued, then the policy and proceeds therefrom are property of the estate, and assuming there are proceeds
from the policy (except in the case of Diginotar nobody litigated it on behalf of the estate), then the trustee of the estate is entitled to distribute them to creditors and/or use them to determine solvency.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> public-bounces@cabforum.org [mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Phillip Hallam-Baker<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 05, 2014 12:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> ben@digicert.com<br>
<b>Cc:</b> public@cabforum.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Probably a very complicated business as DigiNotar was declared bankrupt<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">There is a big difference between an insurance policy that indemnifies the insured against claims by third parties and a policy that indemnifies the losses of third parties. Once bankrupt, the insured no longer exists and does not need
protection against claims.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On May 5, 2014, at 1:44 PM, Ben Wilson <<a href="mailto:ben@digicert.com">ben@digicert.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">So, had Diginotar been more responsive on the breach, taking action early on, there would have been insurance coverage?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org">mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Richard@WoSign<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, May 04, 2014 6:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:kirk_hall@trendmicro.com">kirk_hall@trendmicro.com</a>; Adriano Santoni; CABFPub (<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org">public@cabforum.org</a>)<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Yes, when I consult my insurance broker the each type cert warranty amount, my insurance broker told me that the reparation never happen, so you can write any amount in your
website since it the lost really happen it should go to the court and the insurance company will have 100 reason to deny the claim.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Why WoSign endorse this ballot is NOT for reason that WoSign can’t afford it, we think it don’t bring any benefit to end user and waste the money.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Richard</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org"><span style="color:purple">public-bounces@cabforum.org</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org"><span style="color:purple">mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org</span></a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:kirk_hall@trendmicro.com"><span style="color:purple">kirk_hall@trendmicro.com</span></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, May 5, 2014 12:49 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Adriano Santoni; CABFPub (<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org"><span style="color:purple">public@cabforum.org</span></a>)<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I don’t know. I do know that (in the US and Canada) all policies have “cooperation,” “duty to report incidents,” and “bad acts” clauses which are conditions
to providing any coverage. If the insured (Diginotar) fails to comply with those contractual provisions, it makes things harder for the insurer to handle any claims (and remember, the first duty of the insurer is to defend the insured and try to defeat the
claims, not to pay the claims… claims are only paid after litigation, etc., so the insurance is not there to help the public or injured customers).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here, it’s my understanding that the insurer walked away, with the court’s approval, maybe because Diginotar failed to take action early on.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Adriano
Santoni [</span><a href="mailto:adriano.santoni@staff.aruba.it"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:purple">mailto:adriano.santoni@staff.aruba.it</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, May 03, 2014 11:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Kirk Hall (RD-US); CABFPub (</span><a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:purple">public@cabforum.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">)<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>R: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">This automatic translation is rather difficult to understand, to me. Who was the Insurer in this case? <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#575757">Inviato da Samsung Mobile.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-------- Messaggio originale --------<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Da:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:kirk_hall@trendmicro.com"><span style="color:purple">kirk_hall@trendmicro.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Data:03/05/2014 23:02 (GMT+01:00)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">A: "CABFPub (<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org"><span style="color:purple">public@cabforum.org</span></a>)"<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Oggetto: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Jeremy, in response to your question below -- it was Bob Relyea who found the link during our last CABF meeting stating (in translation) that Diginotar’s insurer denied all coverage, so there was no possibility of any recovery for claims
by the public or customers. See link. That’s why it makes sense to delete the current coverage requirements.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">----- Forwarded Message -----<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">From: Bob Relyea <<a href="mailto:bob@relyea.com"><span style="color:purple">bob@relyea.com</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">To: Robert Relyea <<a href="mailto:rrelyea@redhat.com"><span style="color:purple">rrelyea@redhat.com</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Sent: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 15:29:26 -0500 (EST)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Subject: Diginotar<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://webwereld.nl/beveiliging/77898-curator-diginotar-haalt-bakzeil-in-zaak-tegen-opta&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddiginotar%2Bcurator%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D775"><span style="color:purple">http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://webwereld.nl/beveiliging/77898-curator-diginotar-haalt-bakzeil-in-zaak-tegen-opta&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddiginotar%2Bcurator%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D775</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Jeremy Rowley [<a href="mailto:jeremy.rowley@digicert.com"><span style="color:purple">mailto:jeremy.rowley@digicert.com</span></a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 9:00 AM<br>
To: Kirk Hall (RD-US); 'Gervase Markham';<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org"><span style="color:purple">public@cabforum.org</span></a><br>
Subject: RE: [cabfpub] Ballot 121 - EVGL Insurance Requirements<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Can you please send a link to the info about DigiNotar. This is the first I've heard that the insurance company didn't have to pay anything to damaged end users and would like to investigate further. My guess is that the claims were not
being brought by the right party. <o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre> <span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif""><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
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