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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Surety/performance bonds are very expensive (or tie up a lot of the bonded customer’s assets), and they typically come only in a few standard flavors (typical situations
where bonding is required). They are also hyper-legal, and would have to describe exactly what powers the bonding company has. I don’t think a bond exists today that would cover claims from bad certs.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Really, the types of potential liability to a CA’s customers and the public are not that much different than the types of liability and harm that any other technology company
faces – browsers, servers, applications all can go wrong and hurt the public (credit card data stolen, etc.). The companies that make those products and services have whatever liability to the public the law creates, but they are not required to have insurance
or post bonds to sell browser software, servers, or applications. I’m not sure why CAs face this special insurance requirement – we are the only ones in the security infrastructure to have to show insurance, as far as I can tell.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> James Ryan [mailto:james@litmuslogic.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 05, 2014 4:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kirk Hall (RD-US)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> ben@digicert.com; Phillip Hallam-Baker; public@cabforum.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Has a surety/performance bond been considered before? <o:p>
</o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 6:20 PM, <a href="mailto:kirk_hall@trendmicro.com">
kirk_hall@trendmicro.com</a> <<a href="mailto:kirk_hall@trendmicro.com" target="_blank">kirk_hall@trendmicro.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">[Getting pretty deep in law stuff here] If a company with insurance goes bankrupt, that does not cancel the insurance
and it generally will continue to cover the company, even in bankruptcy. However, the insurance is only for protection of the company, not claimants – if claimants benefit at all, it is only indirectly (if the insurer has to pay the claim after defending
the company). The claims may get caught up in the bankruptcy proceeding as well.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The one thing I can clearly tell you is – if the insurance has policy limits of, say, $5 million, that does NOT
create a pot of $5 million in cash that sits in the bankruptcy court to be handed out to claimants. Each claim will still be defended and defeated by the insurer, if possible, until the money runs out.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">In Diginotar, the insurer apparently avoided all liability (even to injured third parties) because intentional
bad acts by Diginotar cancelled the coverage – so Diginotar would be punished and get no protection or coverage from the insurer.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ben Wilson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 05, 2014 12:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Phillip Hallam-Baker'</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public@cabforum.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">But if the policy insures the entity itself, as has been argued, then the policy and proceeds therefrom
are property of the estate, and assuming there are proceeds from the policy (except in the case of Diginotar nobody litigated it on behalf of the estate), then the trustee of the estate is entitled to distribute them to creditors and/or use them to determine
solvency.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Phillip Hallam-Baker<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 05, 2014 12:33 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:ben@digicert.com" target="_blank">ben@digicert.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public@cabforum.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Probably a very complicated business as DigiNotar was declared bankrupt<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">There is a big difference between an insurance policy that indemnifies the insured against claims by third parties and a policy that indemnifies the losses of third parties. Once
bankrupt, the insured no longer exists and does not need protection against claims.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On May 5, 2014, at 1:44 PM, Ben Wilson <<a href="mailto:ben@digicert.com" target="_blank">ben@digicert.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">So, had Diginotar been more responsive on the breach, taking action early on, there would have been
insurance coverage?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank">mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard@WoSign<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 04, 2014 6:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:kirk_hall@trendmicro.com" target="_blank">kirk_hall@trendmicro.com</a>; Adriano Santoni; CABFPub (<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank">public@cabforum.org</a>)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Yes, when I consult my insurance broker the each type cert warranty amount, my insurance broker told me that the reparation
never happen, so you can write any amount in your website since it the lost really happen it should go to the court and the insurance company will have 100 reason to deny the claim.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Why WoSign endorse this ballot is NOT for reason that WoSign can’t afford it, we think it don’t bring any benefit
to end user and waste the money.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-align:justify">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Richard</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">public-bounces@cabforum.org</span></a> [<a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org</span></a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:kirk_hall@trendmicro.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">kirk_hall@trendmicro.com</span></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 5, 2014 12:49 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Adriano Santoni; CABFPub (<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">public@cabforum.org</span></a>)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I don’t know. I do know that (in the US and Canada) all policies have “cooperation,” “duty to report
incidents,” and “bad acts” clauses which are conditions to providing any coverage. If the insured (Diginotar) fails to comply with those contractual provisions, it makes things harder for the insurer to handle any claims (and remember, the first duty of the
insurer is to defend the insured and try to defeat the claims, not to pay the claims… claims are only paid after litigation, etc., so the insurance is not there to help the public or injured customers).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Here, it’s my understanding that the insurer walked away, with the court’s approval, maybe because
Diginotar failed to take action early on.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Adriano Santoni [</span><a href="mailto:adriano.santoni@staff.aruba.it" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:purple">mailto:adriano.santoni@staff.aruba.it</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 03, 2014 11:34 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kirk Hall (RD-US); CABFPub (</span><a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:purple">public@cabforum.org</span></a><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> R: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">This automatic translation is rather difficult to understand, to me. Who was the Insurer in this case? <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#575757">Inviato da Samsung Mobile.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">-------- Messaggio originale --------<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Da: <a href="mailto:kirk_hall@trendmicro.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">kirk_hall@trendmicro.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Data:03/05/2014 23:02 (GMT+01:00)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">A: "CABFPub (<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">public@cabforum.org</span></a>)"<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Oggetto: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Jeremy, in response to your question below -- it was Bob Relyea who found the link during our last CABF meeting stating (in translation) that Diginotar’s insurer denied all coverage,
so there was no possibility of any recovery for claims by the public or customers. See link. That’s why it makes sense to delete the current coverage requirements.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">----- Forwarded Message -----<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">From: Bob Relyea <<a href="mailto:bob@relyea.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">bob@relyea.com</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">To: Robert Relyea <<a href="mailto:rrelyea@redhat.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">rrelyea@redhat.com</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Sent: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 15:29:26 -0500 (EST)<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Subject: Diginotar<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://webwereld.nl/beveiliging/77898-curator-diginotar-haalt-bakzeil-in-zaak-tegen-opta&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddiginotar%2Bcurator%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D775" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://webwereld.nl/beveiliging/77898-curator-diginotar-haalt-bakzeil-in-zaak-tegen-opta&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddiginotar%2Bcurator%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D775</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Jeremy Rowley [<a href="mailto:jeremy.rowley@digicert.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">mailto:jeremy.rowley@digicert.com</span></a>] <br>
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 9:00 AM<br>
To: Kirk Hall (RD-US); 'Gervase Markham'; <a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org" target="_blank"><span style="color:purple">public@cabforum.org</span></a><br>
Subject: RE: [cabfpub] Ballot 121 - EVGL Insurance Requirements<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Can you please send a link to the info about DigiNotar. This is the first I've heard that the insurance company didn't have to pay anything to damaged end users and would like
to investigate further. My guess is that the claims were not being brought by the right party. <o:p></o:p></p>
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