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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>But if the policy insures the entity itself, as has been argued, then the policy and proceeds therefrom are property of the estate, and assuming there are proceeds from the policy (except in the case of Diginotar nobody litigated it on behalf of the estate), then the trustee of the estate is entitled to distribute them to creditors and/or use them to determine solvency.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> public-bounces@cabforum.org [mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Phillip Hallam-Baker<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 05, 2014 12:33 PM<br><b>To:</b> ben@digicert.com<br><b>Cc:</b> public@cabforum.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Probably a very complicated business as DigiNotar was declared bankrupt<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>There is a big difference between an insurance policy that indemnifies the insured against claims by third parties and a policy that indemnifies the losses of third parties. Once bankrupt, the insured no longer exists and does not need protection against claims.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On May 5, 2014, at 1:44 PM, Ben Wilson <<a href="mailto:ben@digicert.com">ben@digicert.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So, had Diginotar been more responsive on the breach, taking action early on, there would have been insurance coverage?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org">public-bounces@cabforum.org</a> [<a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org">mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org</a>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Richard@WoSign<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Sunday, May 04, 2014 6:37 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:kirk_hall@trendmicro.com">kirk_hall@trendmicro.com</a>; Adriano Santoni; CABFPub (<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org">public@cabforum.org</a>)<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Yes, when I consult my insurance broker the each type cert warranty amount, my insurance broker told me that the reparation never happen, so you can write any amount in your website since it the lost really happen it should go to the court and the insurance company will have 100 reason to deny the claim.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Why WoSign endorse this ballot is NOT for reason that WoSign can’t afford it, we think it don’t bring any benefit to end user and waste the money.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-align:justify'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Richard</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org"><span style='color:purple'>public-bounces@cabforum.org</span></a><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>[<a href="mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org"><span style='color:purple'>mailto:public-bounces@cabforum.org</span></a>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b><a href="mailto:kirk_hall@trendmicro.com"><span style='color:purple'>kirk_hall@trendmicro.com</span></a><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Monday, May 5, 2014 12:49 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Adriano Santoni; CABFPub (<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org"><span style='color:purple'>public@cabforum.org</span></a>)<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I don’t know. I do know that (in the US and Canada) all policies have “cooperation,” “duty to report incidents,” and “bad acts” clauses which are conditions to providing any coverage. If the insured (Diginotar) fails to comply with those contractual provisions, it makes things harder for the insurer to handle any claims (and remember, the first duty of the insurer is to defend the insured and try to defeat the claims, not to pay the claims… claims are only paid after litigation, etc., so the insurance is not there to help the public or injured customers).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Here, it’s my understanding that the insurer walked away, with the court’s approval, maybe because Diginotar failed to take action early on.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Adriano Santoni [</span><a href="mailto:adriano.santoni@staff.aruba.it"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:purple'>mailto:adriano.santoni@staff.aruba.it</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Saturday, May 03, 2014 11:34 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Kirk Hall (RD-US); CABFPub (</span><a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:purple'>public@cabforum.org</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>)<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>R: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>This automatic translation is rather difficult to understand, to me. Who was the Insurer in this case? <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:#575757'>Inviato da Samsung Mobile.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-------- Messaggio originale --------<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Da:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:kirk_hall@trendmicro.com"><span style='color:purple'>kirk_hall@trendmicro.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Data:03/05/2014 23:02 (GMT+01:00)<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>A: "CABFPub (<a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org"><span style='color:purple'>public@cabforum.org</span></a>)"<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Oggetto: [cabfpub] Denial of all insurance coverage for Diginotar<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Jeremy, in response to your question below -- it was Bob Relyea who found the link during our last CABF meeting stating (in translation) that Diginotar’s insurer denied all coverage, so there was no possibility of any recovery for claims by the public or customers. See link. That’s why it makes sense to delete the current coverage requirements.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>----- Forwarded Message -----<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>From: Bob Relyea <<a href="mailto:bob@relyea.com"><span style='color:purple'>bob@relyea.com</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>To: Robert Relyea <<a href="mailto:rrelyea@redhat.com"><span style='color:purple'>rrelyea@redhat.com</span></a>><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Sent: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 15:29:26 -0500 (EST)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Subject: Diginotar<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://webwereld.nl/beveiliging/77898-curator-diginotar-haalt-bakzeil-in-zaak-tegen-opta&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddiginotar%2Bcurator%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D775"><span style='color:purple'>http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://webwereld.nl/beveiliging/77898-curator-diginotar-haalt-bakzeil-in-zaak-tegen-opta&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddiginotar%2Bcurator%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D775</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Jeremy Rowley [<a href="mailto:jeremy.rowley@digicert.com"><span style='color:purple'>mailto:jeremy.rowley@digicert.com</span></a>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><br>Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 9:00 AM<br>To: Kirk Hall (RD-US); 'Gervase Markham';<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:public@cabforum.org"><span style='color:purple'>public@cabforum.org</span></a><br>Subject: RE: [cabfpub] Ballot 121 - EVGL Insurance Requirements<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Can you please send a link to the info about DigiNotar. This is the first I've heard that the insurance company didn't have to pay anything to damaged end users and would like to investigate further. My guess is that the claims were not being brought by the right party. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0><tr><td style='background:white;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial'><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0><tr><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><pre>TREND MICRO EMAIL NOTICE<span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre>The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential<span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre>and may be subject to copyright or other intellectual property protection.<span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre>If you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorized to use or<span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre>disclose this information, and we request that you notify us by reply mail or<span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre>telephone and delete the original message from your mail system.<span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0><tr><td style='background:white;padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial'><table class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellpadding=0><tr><td style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><pre> <span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre>TREND MICRO EMAIL NOTICE<span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre>The information contained in this email and any attachments is confidential <span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre>and may be subject to copyright or other intellectual property protection. <span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre>If you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorized to use or <span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre>disclose this information, and we request that you notify us by reply mail or<span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre>telephone and delete the original message from your mail system.<span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></pre></td></tr></table></td></tr></table><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>_______________________________________________<br>Public mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Public@cabforum.org">Public@cabforum.org</a><br><a href="https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public">https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>