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I do not know, I will check with our legal department.<br>
<br>
Adriano<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Il 01/05/2014 17:57, Moudrick M.
Dadashov ha scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:53626EEB.2040205@ssc.lt" type="cite">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Adriano,<br>
<br>
do you think you could share with me the non-confidential part
of your insurance agreement?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
M.D.<br>
<br>
On 5/1/2014 9:45 AM, Adriano Santoni - Actalis S.p.A. wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:5361ED72.5080402@staff.aruba.it" type="cite">
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We are not favourable to this change, at least in the proposed
form, for several reasons.<br>
<br>
First of all, the proposed amendment amounts to changing from
"much" to (possibly) "nothing", and that's unreasonable.<br>
<br>
Besides, in some countries "minimum insurance requirements (if
any) ... applicable to the CA" may not exist, and that would
imply that for CAs incorporated or registered in those countries
there would be no insurance requirement. That would be unfair to
the other CAs, as well as a very bad thing for customers and
relying parties.<br>
<br>
We believe that a public CA must have an appropriate insurance,
with appropriate coverage.<br>
<br>
We had no particular problems meeting the current EVGL insurance
requirements, and see no reasons why those requirements should
be (essentially) removed as its being proposed in this Ballot.<br>
<br>
Adriano<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Il 24/04/2014 02:16, Ben Wilson ha
scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:00a601cf5f52$7bec3b70$73c4b250$@digicert.com"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="line867" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN">Ballot 121 – EVGL Insurance Requirements</span></strong><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="line874" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="line-height:14.65pt;background:white"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN">The EV Guidelines Working Group is considering
updating the EV Guidelines in a number of areas. Kirk
Hall of Trend Micro hereby makes the following motion,
and Moudrick Dadashov from </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext;border:none
windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in">Skaitmeninio sertifikavimo
centras (SSC)</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN">and Richard Wang from WoSign have endorsed
it. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="line862" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="line874" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">This ballot
is to amend the current EV Guidelines (EVGL) Sec. 8.4
requirements as stated below. </span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN">The reasons in favor of the Ballot are stated
after the proposed amendments.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><u><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Motion
begins</span></u><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Amend
EV Guideline Section 8.4 to read as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">EV
Guideline Section 8.4 - Insurance<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Each
CA SHALL maintain <s>the following</s> insurance
related to <s>their</s> <b><u>its</u></b> respective
performance and obligations under these Guidelines <b><u>in
accordance with the the minimum insurance
requirements (if any) as are applicable to the CA
under the law of its jurisdiction of incorporation
or registration.</u></b> <s>:<o:p></o:p></s></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-autospace:none"><s><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">(A)
Commercial General Liability insurance (occurrence
form) with policy limits of at least two million US
dollars in coverage; and<o:p></o:p></span></s></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-autospace:none"><s><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p><span
style="text-decoration:none"> </span></o:p></span></s></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-autospace:none"><s><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">(B)
Professional Liability/Errors and Omissions insurance,
with policy limits of at least five million US dollars
in coverage, and including coverage for (i) claims for
damages arising out of an act, error, or omission,
unintentional breach of contract, or neglect in
issuing or maintaining EV Certificates, and (ii)
claims for damages arising out of infringement of the
proprietary rights of any third party (excluding
copyright, and trademark infringement), and invasion
of privacy and advertising injury.<o:p></o:p></span></s></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><s><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p><span
style="text-decoration:none"> </span></o:p></span></s></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><s><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Such
insurance MUST be with a company rated no less than A-
as to Policy Holder’s Rating in the current edition of
Best’s Insurance Guide (or with an association of
companies each of the members of which are so rated).<o:p></o:p></span></s></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><s><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p><span
style="text-decoration:none"> </span></o:p></span></s></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><s><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">A
CA MAY self-insure for liabilities that arise from
such party's performance and obligations under these
Guidelines provided that it has at least five hundred
million US dollars in liquid assets based on audited
financial statements in the past twelve months, and a
quick ratio (ratio of liquid assets to current
liabilities) of not less than 1.0.<o:p></o:p></span></s></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="line874" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN">Motion Ends <o:p></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class="line874" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The
reasons for this proposed amendment are as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The
insurance requirements were created basically out of
thin air during initial drafting of the EVGL, without
any particular analysis of claims against CAs,
usefulness of insurance, availability of appropriate
insurance, or necessary insurance levels. The main
purpose of an insurance requirement in the EVGL was to
impress the public with the responsibility of CAs who
issue EV certificates. However, as noted below, these
reasons aren’t really justified by the facts.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The
types and amounts of insurance required under EVGL 8.4
are North America-centric, and are not easily available
in other world regions (or not available at all).
Insurance for damages “arising out of infringement of
the proprietary rights of any third party” are generally
not available in many professional liability/errors and
omissions policies. The requirement is arguably unfair
to CAs outside North America.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The
types of insurance required under EVGL 8.4 are not
designed to provide relief or compensation to injured
customers or the public who rely on EV certs issued by a
CA. Both types of insurance are intended primarily to
protect the issuing CA, not injured claimants, and the
insurers will try to avoid or defeat all claims from
claimants. The policies typically include defense costs
within the policy limits, so an insurance policy might
be entirely consumed by defense costs to protect the
issuing CA, with nothing left to pay claims to
claimants.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Commercial
General Liability insurance doesn’t really help
customers or relying parties who claim injury from a bad
cert – these policies are more designed to protect the
CA from things like people falling on a slippery floor
in the CA’s offices, etc. Likewise, professional
liability/E&O coverage will only pay after defending
the CA if a judgment is likely or rendered, and the
insurer may try to avoid coverage if the issuing CA has
done some bad things. For example, Diginotar’s insurer
has denied all coverage because Diginotar hid its breach
and failed to report the problem for several weeks,
compounding the damages and violating its obligations to
the insurers – so the insurance was worthless. These
policies also do not cover contract claims from
customers (e.g., a claim of breach of contract by the CA
such as failure to issue a proper cert).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpLast"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Some
have suggested that even if the current insurance
requirements don’t actually protect the public or
customers, they are nevertheless useful as a “show of
seriousness” by a CA. If that is a worthwhile
objective, we may as well require other irrelevant
things instead like proof of auto insurance or a minimum
office space size – none of these qualifications are
really relevant to whether a CA operates competently and
in compliance with requirements. Instead, we rely
mostly on (1) annual performance audits, and (2) browser
root programs (and consequences of failure) to confirm
competence and compliance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">VeriSign’s
previous general counsel for ten years has said VeriSign
never faced a claim for damages from any certs during
that time. In most cases, bad certs are simply revoked
and possibly reissued.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Even
though there have been virtually no claims against
issuing CAs, buying the minimum insurance can be
expensive for smaller CAs. There is typically a minimum
premium of $25,000 or more per year with a significant
deductible, even though the CA will likely never have a
covered claim. That’s a waste of money.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">In
the Diginotar case, apparently claims were made against
the company’s insurers (perhaps from investors for loss
of value of the company when it was shut down). In any
case, Diginotar’s insurer denied all coverage for the
claims based on Diginotar’s bad acts and breach of its
obligations to the insurer. There would be no possibly
insurance coverage for customers or relying parties, so
the insurance was of no value.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Some
countries have their own minimum insurance requirements
for companies incorporated or registered in their
jurisdiction, while many do not. The CA/Browser Forum
should defer to these decisions by the governing
jurisdictions and require compliance with local
standards – or just delete Section 8.4 entirely, as
every CA must already comply with applicable laws.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Finally,
under current EVGL Sec. 8.4, large companies like Trend
Micro get to opt out of the insurance requirements
because they meet the stated financial requirements.
This is arguably an unfair advantage for large companies
over small ones.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="line874" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN">The review period for this ballot shall
commence at 2200 UTC on Wednesday, 23 April 2014, and
will close at 2200 UTC on Wednesday, 30 April 2014.
Unless the motion is withdrawn during the review period,
the voting period will start immediately thereafter and
will close at 2200 UTC on Wednesday, 7 May 2014. Votes
must be cast by posting an on-list reply to this thread.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="line874" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="line862" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN">A vote in favor of the motion must indicate a
clear 'yes' in the response. A vote against must
indicate a clear 'no' in the response. A vote to abstain
must indicate a clear 'abstain' in the response. Unclear
responses will not be counted. The latest vote received
from any representative of a voting member before the
close of the voting period will be counted. Voting
members are listed here: </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://cabforum.org/members/"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""
lang="EN">https://cabforum.org/members/</span></a><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">
<span lang="EN"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="line862" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="line874" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN">In order for the motion to be adopted, two
thirds or more of the votes cast by members in the CA
category and greater than 50% of the votes cast by
members in the browser category must be in favor. Also,
at least six members must participate in the ballot,
either by voting in favor, voting against, or
abstaining. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Public mailing list
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<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public">https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public</a>
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