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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi Adriano,<br>
<br>
do you think you could share with me the non-confidential part of
your insurance agreement?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
M.D.<br>
<br>
On 5/1/2014 9:45 AM, Adriano Santoni - Actalis S.p.A. wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:5361ED72.5080402@staff.aruba.it" type="cite">
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We are not favourable to this change, at least in the proposed
form, for several reasons.<br>
<br>
First of all, the proposed amendment amounts to changing from
"much" to (possibly) "nothing", and that's unreasonable.<br>
<br>
Besides, in some countries "minimum insurance requirements (if
any) ... applicable to the CA" may not exist, and that would imply
that for CAs incorporated or registered in those countries there
would be no insurance requirement. That would be unfair to the
other CAs, as well as a very bad thing for customers and relying
parties.<br>
<br>
We believe that a public CA must have an appropriate insurance,
with appropriate coverage.<br>
<br>
We had no particular problems meeting the current EVGL insurance
requirements, and see no reasons why those requirements should be
(essentially) removed as its being proposed in this Ballot.<br>
<br>
Adriano<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Il 24/04/2014 02:16, Ben Wilson ha
scritto:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:00a601cf5f52$7bec3b70$73c4b250$@digicert.com"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="line867" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><strong><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN">Ballot 121 – EVGL Insurance Requirements</span></strong><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="line874" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="line-height:14.65pt;background:white"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN">The EV Guidelines Working Group is considering
updating the EV Guidelines in a number of areas. Kirk
Hall of Trend Micro hereby makes the following motion, and
Moudrick Dadashov from </span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext;border:none
windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in">Skaitmeninio sertifikavimo
centras (SSC)</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
</span><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN">and Richard Wang from WoSign have endorsed it.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="line862" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="line874" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">This ballot
is to amend the current EV Guidelines (EVGL) Sec. 8.4
requirements as stated below. </span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN">The reasons in favor of the Ballot are stated
after the proposed amendments.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><u><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Motion
begins</span></u><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Amend
EV Guideline Section 8.4 to read as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">EV
Guideline Section 8.4 - Insurance<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><b><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Each
CA SHALL maintain <s>the following</s> insurance related
to <s>their</s> <b><u>its</u></b> respective performance
and obligations under these Guidelines <b><u>in
accordance with the the minimum insurance requirements
(if any) as are applicable to the CA under the law of
its jurisdiction of incorporation or registration.</u></b>
<s>:<o:p></o:p></s></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-autospace:none"><s><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">(A)
Commercial General Liability insurance (occurrence form)
with policy limits of at least two million US dollars in
coverage; and<o:p></o:p></span></s></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-autospace:none"><s><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p><span
style="text-decoration:none"> </span></o:p></span></s></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:1.0in;text-autospace:none"><s><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">(B)
Professional Liability/Errors and Omissions insurance,
with policy limits of at least five million US dollars
in coverage, and including coverage for (i) claims for
damages arising out of an act, error, or omission,
unintentional breach of contract, or neglect in issuing
or maintaining EV Certificates, and (ii) claims for
damages arising out of infringement of the proprietary
rights of any third party (excluding copyright, and
trademark infringement), and invasion of privacy and
advertising injury.<o:p></o:p></span></s></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><s><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p><span
style="text-decoration:none"> </span></o:p></span></s></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><s><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Such
insurance MUST be with a company rated no less than A-
as to Policy Holder’s Rating in the current edition of
Best’s Insurance Guide (or with an association of
companies each of the members of which are so rated).<o:p></o:p></span></s></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:.5in;text-autospace:none"><s><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p><span
style="text-decoration:none"> </span></o:p></span></s></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><s><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">A
CA MAY self-insure for liabilities that arise from such
party's performance and obligations under these
Guidelines provided that it has at least five hundred
million US dollars in liquid assets based on audited
financial statements in the past twelve months, and a
quick ratio (ratio of liquid assets to current
liabilities) of not less than 1.0.<o:p></o:p></span></s></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="line874" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><u><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN">Motion Ends <o:p></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class="line874" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The
reasons for this proposed amendment are as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The
insurance requirements were created basically out of thin
air during initial drafting of the EVGL, without any
particular analysis of claims against CAs, usefulness of
insurance, availability of appropriate insurance, or
necessary insurance levels. The main purpose of an
insurance requirement in the EVGL was to impress the
public with the responsibility of CAs who issue EV
certificates. However, as noted below, these reasons
aren’t really justified by the facts.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The
types and amounts of insurance required under EVGL 8.4 are
North America-centric, and are not easily available in
other world regions (or not available at all). Insurance
for damages “arising out of infringement of the
proprietary rights of any third party” are generally not
available in many professional liability/errors and
omissions policies. The requirement is arguably unfair to
CAs outside North America.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The
types of insurance required under EVGL 8.4 are not
designed to provide relief or compensation to injured
customers or the public who rely on EV certs issued by a
CA. Both types of insurance are intended primarily to
protect the issuing CA, not injured claimants, and the
insurers will try to avoid or defeat all claims from
claimants. The policies typically include defense costs
within the policy limits, so an insurance policy might be
entirely consumed by defense costs to protect the issuing
CA, with nothing left to pay claims to claimants.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Commercial
General Liability insurance doesn’t really help customers
or relying parties who claim injury from a bad cert –
these policies are more designed to protect the CA from
things like people falling on a slippery floor in the CA’s
offices, etc. Likewise, professional liability/E&O
coverage will only pay after defending the CA if a
judgment is likely or rendered, and the insurer may try to
avoid coverage if the issuing CA has done some bad
things. For example, Diginotar’s insurer has denied all
coverage because Diginotar hid its breach and failed to
report the problem for several weeks, compounding the
damages and violating its obligations to the insurers – so
the insurance was worthless. These policies also do not
cover contract claims from customers (e.g., a claim of
breach of contract by the CA such as failure to issue a
proper cert).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraphCxSpLast"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Some
have suggested that even if the current insurance
requirements don’t actually protect the public or
customers, they are nevertheless useful as a “show of
seriousness” by a CA. If that is a worthwhile objective,
we may as well require other irrelevant things instead
like proof of auto insurance or a minimum office space
size – none of these qualifications are really relevant to
whether a CA operates competently and in compliance with
requirements. Instead, we rely mostly on (1) annual
performance audits, and (2) browser root programs (and
consequences of failure) to confirm competence and
compliance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">VeriSign’s
previous general counsel for ten years has said VeriSign
never faced a claim for damages from any certs during that
time. In most cases, bad certs are simply revoked and
possibly reissued.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Even
though there have been virtually no claims against issuing
CAs, buying the minimum insurance can be expensive for
smaller CAs. There is typically a minimum premium of
$25,000 or more per year with a significant deductible,
even though the CA will likely never have a covered
claim. That’s a waste of money.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">In
the Diginotar case, apparently claims were made against
the company’s insurers (perhaps from investors for loss of
value of the company when it was shut down). In any case,
Diginotar’s insurer denied all coverage for the claims
based on Diginotar’s bad acts and breach of its
obligations to the insurer. There would be no possibly
insurance coverage for customers or relying parties, so
the insurance was of no value.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Some
countries have their own minimum insurance requirements
for companies incorporated or registered in their
jurisdiction, while many do not. The CA/Browser Forum
should defer to these decisions by the governing
jurisdictions and require compliance with local standards
– or just delete Section 8.4 entirely, as every CA must
already comply with applicable laws.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.25in"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-bottom:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-.25in;line-height:normal;mso-list:l0
level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Finally,
under current EVGL Sec. 8.4, large companies like Trend
Micro get to opt out of the insurance requirements because
they meet the stated financial requirements. This is
arguably an unfair advantage for large companies over
small ones.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="line874" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN">The review period for this ballot shall commence
at 2200 UTC on Wednesday, 23 April 2014, and will close at
2200 UTC on Wednesday, 30 April 2014. Unless the motion is
withdrawn during the review period, the voting period will
start immediately thereafter and will close at 2200 UTC on
Wednesday, 7 May 2014. Votes must be cast by posting an
on-list reply to this thread. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="line874" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="line862" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN">A vote in favor of the motion must indicate a
clear 'yes' in the response. A vote against must indicate
a clear 'no' in the response. A vote to abstain must
indicate a clear 'abstain' in the response. Unclear
responses will not be counted. The latest vote received
from any representative of a voting member before the
close of the voting period will be counted. Voting members
are listed here: </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://cabforum.org/members/"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""
lang="EN">https://cabforum.org/members/</span></a><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">
<span lang="EN"><o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class="line862" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="line874" style="margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"
lang="EN">In order for the motion to be adopted, two
thirds or more of the votes cast by members in the CA
category and greater than 50% of the votes cast by members
in the browser category must be in favor. Also, at least
six members must participate in the ballot, either by
voting in favor, voting against, or abstaining. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Public mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Public@cabforum.org">Public@cabforum.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public">https://cabforum.org/mailman/listinfo/public</a>
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