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<body lang="EN-US" link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72" style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Here are the draft minutes from the meeting on Tuesday.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Dustin<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Anti-trust statement<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l5 level1 lfo1">
Ben Wilson (Mozilla) read the anti-trust statement<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Attendance<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Ali Gholami (Telia Company)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Ben Wilson (Mozilla)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Brittany Randall (GoDaddy)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Clint Wilson (Apple)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Corey Bonnell (DigiCert)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Daniel Jeffery (Fastly)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
David Kluge (Google Trust Services)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Dustin Hollenback (Microsoft)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Janet Hines (SecureTrust)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Kati Davids (GoDaddy)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Niko Carpenter (SecureTrust)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Prachi Jain (Fastly)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Quan Nham (Fastly)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Tim Crawford (BDO)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Tobias Josefowitz (Opera)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Trevoli Ponds-White (Amazon Trust Services)<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">
Tyler Myers (GoDaddy)<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Minute Taker<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3">
Dustin Hollenback (Microsoft)<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Approve Previous Minutes<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l3 level1 lfo4">
2021-Aug-17 minutes approved<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>New NetSec Subcommittee Leadership<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l6 level1 lfo5">
Ben Wilson (Mozilla) proposed that we set the officers<o:p></o:p></li><ul type="circle">
<li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l6 level2 lfo5">
Clint Wilson (Apple) Chair<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l6 level2 lfo5">
David Kluge (Google Trust Services) 1st Vice Chair<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l6 level2 lfo5">
Dustin Hollenback (Microsoft) 2nd Vice Chair<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l6 level2 lfo5">
There were no objections. <o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>WebEx Access<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l7 level1 lfo6">
Clint Wilson (Apple), David Kluge (Google), and Ben Wilson (Mozilla) have host access and can start future meetings<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Possible Change to Subcommittee Meeting Time<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo7">
As of now, all participation is from North America and Europe<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo7">
Clint Wilson (Apple) mentioned that all of the other meeting times are at either 7 a.m. or 8 a.m. Pacific time and that the current meeting time slot may be late for members joining from Europe<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l1 level1 lfo7">
For primary meeting, Clint Wilson (Apple) will send a Google Doodle for members to vote on potential new days/times on Monday and Tuesday. There was strong pushback about scheduling a Friday meeting.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Discussion about Future of Sub-Groups and Break-out Sessions<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Clint Wilson (Apple) asked if we should continue to have dedicated sub-group meetings or if we should use part of the time for the Subcommittee meeting and setup break-out sessions where smaller groups can focus on specific topics at the same time.
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Ben Wilson (Mozilla) mentioned that some people like to be involved in everything. Different meetings allow those people to participate in everything.
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Trevoli Ponds-White (Amazon Trust Services) suggested instead of permanent distinct sub-groups, that we have short duration sub-groups that accomplish a specific thing. In this case, we would set pre-determined meetings for consistency, but we would assign
particular topics to that time slot until the activity is completed and re-use future meetings in that time slot for the next important topic. This will require more time management. We made a lot of good progress on the point points, but this approach could
allow us to make progress on smaller parts.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Ben Wilson (Mozilla) agreed. Cloud services may be the only topic that may continue to meet permanently with a set timeframe. He likes the idea of breaking out smaller topics and prioritizing a particular concern at that time.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Clint Wilson (Apple) wanted to know what are the priority topics.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Trevoli Ponds-White (Amazon Trust Services) suggested that we just focus on setting a few meeting times now and then we can decide how to fill them later. Once we have a good meeting time, the easier part will be to change the meeting topic. Trev wanted to
get feedback from David Kluge (Google Trust Services). <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
David Kluge (Google Trust Services) said that he was OK with re-using the existing Monday time slot for other topics instead of only Cloud Services. He was only concerned that we continue to focus on the areas of improvement that were identified in the Cloud
Services sub-group. <o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Trevoli Ponds-White (Amazon Trust Services) felt like the Cloud Services area has hit a wall. There are still improvements to Network Security Requirements needed first that will benefit cloud services.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Daniel Jeffery (Fastly) agreed that cloud services has hit a wall. He agreed on setting times, then defining what to discuss in each one over time. He proposes that the main meeting is a sum-up and agreement meeting, but primary work is all performed in the
other sub-group or task-specific meetings.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Clint Wilson (Apple) mentioned that we still have somewhat similar topics as we’ve had in the past. An example is the document structure (re-writing document). Focus areas have been clarifying ambiguities and removing duplicate requirements or language that
are part of the NCSSRs, but are not PKI specific. This includes removing requirements where the Forum members may not be the experts.
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Trevoli Ponds-White (Amazon Trust Services) mentioned that we should reference meeting existing industry standards instead of writing our own. As an example, sections of the Baseline Requirements are empty or have limited details. Vulnerability management is
a good first example where we can point to a different standard.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Daniel Jeffery (Fastly) said that a previous meeting discussed existing security standards that would be better to point to. The goal should be to avoid re-creating a standard and instead reference an existing standard that can be used by all forum members
and then focusing on any differences or gaps in those standards that impact Web PKI. Daniel mentioned that different standards may not be applicable or allowed in different countries.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Dustin Hollenback (Microsoft) asked what is the action item is for determining which standards could be leveraged.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Daniel Jeffery (Fastly) suggested that we use a dedicated breakout meeting to discuss. If anyone wants to research beforehand, it would be helpful. Daniel mentioned that different standards may not be applicable or allowed in different countries and we need
the standard to be usable for every member.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
The group collectively mentioned several potential programs such as: National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), Center for Internet Security (CIS), Payment Card Industry (PCI), System and Organization Controls (SOC), International Organization for
Standardization (ISO), or Federal Risk and Authorization Management Program (FedRAMP).<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Brittany Randall (GoDaddy) agreed that it is better to reference/benchmark against existing industry standards where we are not the experts. As we potentially point to a different standard, it could mean that an additional audit could be required. It’s also
important to ensure that it can work for all countries. We could even identify where we need exceptions to the standard.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Daniel Jeffery (Fastly) mentioned that the key piece is that we clearly identify the things that Web PKI needs. We can create an overlay that points to a solid regulatory framework as the baseline.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Brittany Randall (GoDaddy) mentioned that some of the frameworks require internal audits. There could potentially be additional 3rd party attestation.
<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
David Kluge (Google Trust Services) mentioned that this was where the cloud services sub-group started. There were industry requirements and an overlay of the PKI-specific differences. David referenced the following document that a group on his team prepared
as part of that previous discussion. <a href="https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fspreadsheets%2Fd%2F10mQ94Lzjd_qy_DeIpXQl3CpEGVzY5ISqr67BE8CZb3o%2F&data=04%7C01%7CDustin.Hollenback%40microsoft.com%7C992a0a93259a4d0cf0f808d96cfbe7e1%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637660651475532065%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=q2yN5lEN7XDoBUrrTEkyhfgYLO0DKHfP6%2FulUVub%2Fks%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
<span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10mQ94Lzjd_qy_DeIpXQl3CpEGVzY5ISqr67BE8CZb3o/</span></a><o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Clint Wilson (Apple) asked if there were specific standards that appeared to be more likely to be used.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
David Kluge (Google Trust Services) mentioned that the ETSI standard was the most relevant. An interesting observation is that the NCSSRs do not cover very many subjects. Preserving the status quo is not the safest option. The safest option is to clarify ambiguities
and close gaps. There are architectural limitations imposed by current NCSSRs based on ambiguities and that they were based on an older technological vision.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
There were discussions about David’s document and that it helps highlight all of the things that are not currently covered by in the NCSSRs today. These gaps have left vagueness where different CAs will implement differently and interpretation has been left
to the auditors.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Clint Wilson (Apple) asked if the review of NCSSRs has a lot of overlap with the Cloud Services work or if they should be done as separate activities.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
David Kluge (Google Trust Services) said that there is probably a lot of overlap. Once we find a standard to reference, the incremental changes will probably be fairly small. That might solve most of impediments to using cloud providers. 3rd party audit still
needs to be solved.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Clint Wilson (Apple) recapped the outcome.... we'd shift focus away from Cloud Services and have a task force that looks at scope. He asked if scoping should be the primary focus for NetSec. Everyone that provided input agreed that scoping should be our man
focus. Clint asked where what standards we should look at closer.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Ben Wilson (Mozilla) suggested that we look at the different standards and decide what do we want to do with specificity of requirements versus frameworks that are not as specific. If we adopt a framework, we are telling CAs that the things expected in that
framework are completed, but we are not looking at the specifics. We would expect that you are meeting those requirements by getting the certification.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Brittany Randall (GoDaddy) mentioned that some of these other audits have different timelines, such as every 3 years. This brings up some tactical things that would need to be addressed.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Daniel Jeffery (Fastly) thinks we should focus on the standard. Some standards are very specific and prescriptive about how things should be setup and it is more difficult. He thinks that we should be more specific.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Trevoli Ponds-White (Amazon Trust Services) suggested compiling the larger list and then creating pros/cons list to determine which are PKI specific and do we care about the gaps in NCSSRs. And, determine when standards introduce requirements that we do not
want. An example is the PCI password policy, which is something Trevoli does not think we should keep. In that example, we could say we want PCI, but not the password policy. This will help determine if we can just link to standards or if we need to copy sections
into the NSSRs. Once we get very specific requirements, we’ll need to notify the broader group to warn everyone so they can start thinking about what impact this would have.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
Clint Wilson (Apple) agreed that the subcommittee would need to perform a lot of the assessment before it gets to the Server Certificate Working Group.<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l8 level1 lfo8">
There was more discussion about how this could cause architectural changes to meet any new prescriptive requirements. We will determine more information once we create a pros/cons list and narrow down the potential standards to implement. We’ll use this next
meeting to discuss in more detail.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b>Final thoughts<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l4 level1 lfo9">
Clint Wilson (Apple) will send the Doodle poll to determine a new meeting time<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l4 level1 lfo9">
For the next meeting, we'll discuss in-progress ballots<o:p></o:p></li><li class="gmail-m8791418111118507373msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l4 level1 lfo9">
A few members will look at standards before the next meeting to start the pros/cons list<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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