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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17/11/2021 8:56 μ.μ., Bruce Morton
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM5PR11MB0041805B0AD9640F745ECD92829A9@DM5PR11MB0041.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Dimitris,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regarding this statement, “I see that you
probably missed my comment for removing option 4. (a suitable
IT audit, etc). Are there any objections to removing that
problematic option?”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The concern I have and has been raised on a
call is if a customer has purchased a server HSM, which does
not support key attestation, what is the CAs alternative to
verify that the many keys have been generated on the HSM?</p>
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<br>
This is covered under option 6.<br>
<br>
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<![endif]--><i>"
6. The CA or a Qualified Auditor witnesses the key creation in
a suitable hardware crypto module solution including a cloud-based
key generation and protection solution. "
</i><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM5PR11MB0041805B0AD9640F745ECD92829A9@DM5PR11MB0041.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I do understand that this is a problematic
option, but I do not see another option for the above use
case. We might be better suited to provide more information on
the IT audit. Here are some ideas:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo5">Form audit
letter included in the CSBRs<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo5">Signed by a
verified identity, such as a Contract Signer<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo5">Audit letter
Includes a warranty that all keys for code signing
certificates requested will be generated on the HSM<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo5">Audit
includes crypto device make, model, serial number and
picture of serial number<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo5">Etc.
<o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think we see that the current environment
has limited USB tokens which support both 3072/4096-bit RSA
and key attestation. We also see that many server HSMs do not
support key attestation. It looks like the ecosystem needs to
evolve a little longer before we can make our requirements
perfect.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
As explained in previous discussions, there is no "IT audit" today
that can remotely attest that an operating environment achieves the
levels of security described in 16.3.1 (i.e. FIPS 140-2 level 2 or
EAL 4+). I believe your use case is perfectly covered with the new
option 6.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM5PR11MB0041805B0AD9640F745ECD92829A9@DM5PR11MB0041.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Also, I don’t see that option 4 IT audit is
any more problematic than option 5 a cloud provider
subscription agreement.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
The "cloud-based key protection solution" (or a "signing service key
protection solution") will include an audit report that describes
that the solution actually uses HSMs certified according to 16.3.1.
The CA will review this audit report, ensure that the solution is
compliant with 16.3.1 and then allow the Subscriber to use that
service. Actually, 5 is very similar to 7, which is why I am
suggesting we merge the "cloud-based solution" and the "signing
service".<br>
<br>
Dimitris.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM5PR11MB0041805B0AD9640F745ECD92829A9@DM5PR11MB0041.namprd11.prod.outlook.com">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bruce.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Cscwg-public
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:cscwg-public-bounces@cabforum.org"><cscwg-public-bounces@cabforum.org></a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dimitris Zacharopoulos (HARICA) via
Cscwg-public<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 17, 2021 1:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ian McMillan <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ianmcm@microsoft.com"><ianmcm@microsoft.com></a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:cscwg-public@cabforum.org">cscwg-public@cabforum.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Cscwg-public] [EXTERNAL] Re:
Discussion: Proposed Ballot CSC-6: Update to Subscriber
Private Key Protection Requirements<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 17/11/2021 7:01 μ.μ., Ian McMillan
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi
Dmitris, </span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">This
is not too painful.
</span><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI
Emoji",sans-serif">😊</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Effective
date set is September 1, 2022 as stated in section 16.3,
but 16.2 already has an effective date (June 1, 2021) for
signing services to use
</span>at least FIPS 140-2 level 2, or Common Criteria EAL
4+ for ALL Code Signing Certificates per the table in
section 1.3. I’ll add the effective date into the table in
section 1.3 for the changes in 16.3 on all code signing
certs . Please review the text I used in the 1.3 table, and
suggest some better language if possible.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">When I read the,"conforming to <b>at
least</b> FIPS 140-2 level 2, or Common Criteria EAL 4+",
it does apply to CC EAL 4+ as well.
<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Thanks for clarifying.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In 16.2, I’ve corrected the typo
(thanks!), but for cloud-based solutions they will have
their own terms for resources under a subscription. I think
the wording we’ll need to summarize to is for each key
generated and stored in the cloud-based subscription it must
be conforming to the requirements. With Azure and AKV, if I
have a subscription with a resource group and an AKV
resource underneath, for every key I generate, I’ll need to
specify the vault protection level (HSM) upon key creation.
This means I could have a subscription with N number of keys
with various protection levels. AKV recommends users do not
group secrets into one vault, but it doesn’t stop users from
making this risk decision on their own (more keys in one
vault, the larger impact if compromised). GCP and AWS all
have similar offerings and concepts, but the common level of
terminology is subscription. I’ve updated the language to
specifically target the subscription configuration at the
level that manages the private key.
<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
I believe this is too prescriptive. I don't think we can
describe these specific options in a public standards
document. That's why the term "signing service" and
"cloud-based provider" must be described in terms of
functional expectations. Who knows what options will be
available in 2-5 years, or whether Microsoft, Amazon, Google
and others will change their models and call these options
something different than "subscription".<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">In 16.3.1, I’ve updated….<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" type="1" start="1">
<li class="MsoListParagraph"
style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">To be the
suggested text you provided, “Subscriber uses a hosted
hardware crypto module meeting the specified requirement;”
I feel this effectively closes the loophole you pointed
out.<o:p></o:p></li>
</ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">On cloud-based vs signing service
solutions (2 & 3), they are distinctly different
solutions in the market for subscribers today, so I feel we
need to expressly call them out differently.
<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
I don't disagree with that statement, although we do need to
discuss and document their differences and even describe their
functions in a clear and unambiguous way. The term "cloud" is
overloaded and has been used in this industry to mean very
different things depending on the context.<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">For section 16.3.2, I am good with the
suggested change to #2 with a small ordering tweak being,
“The Subscriber counter-signs certificate requests that can
be verified by using a manufacturer’s certificate indicating
that the key was generated in a non-exportable way using a
suitable hardware module;”<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">With #1, I’d prefer keeping the same way
it is today. I’m interested how folks view section 10.2.4
playing a part here as well (and with signing services).
<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
To help with the comparison, let me repeat the text here:<br>
<br>
<i>"1. The CA ships a suitable hardware crypto module, with
a preinstalled key pair" could be changed to:<br>
<br>
"1. The CA ships a suitable hardware crypto module, with
one or more pre-generated key pairs that the CA has
generated using those crypto modules"</i><br>
<br>
The current wording is limiting the key-pairs to just <b>one
key-pair</b> (singular) when the CA can ship more than one
key-pairs (for future use). I also wanted to avoid the case
where CAs generate keys outside of these hardware modules (via
software because it's faster) and then import them into
crypto-modules and ship them to Subscribers.<br>
<br>
I see that you probably missed my comment for removing option
4. (a suitable IT audit, etc). Are there any objections to
removing that problematic option?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">On #8, My goal wasn’t to set a deadline
for new methods to be introduced, but to require any
innovations to be well documented by the CAs and brought to
the Forum’s working group for inclusion. That said, I see
the loophole this creates in that a CA could include a new
method in their CP/CPS docs and bring it to the WG in the
accordance with this requirement. But the WG could deem the
method not acceptable and there is no requirement that
states the CA must not use that now rejected method. The
downside is we really do not want to maintain a rejected
method list, so I am with you on the suggested change you
provided with the date being September 1, 2022. I would like
to keep the dates all aligned to reduce confusion.
<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
I believe this was discussed during our last call and the plan
was for a roadmap that would ultimately remove this "any other
method" option. Until that time, CAs would need to disclose
their "any other methods" to the CABF until a certain date
(Sep 1, 2022 seems fine with me), so the WG can evaluate the
security of that method and either include or reject it. I
think we're in total agreement here :)<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The attached updated redline draft has
all these changes.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Let me know how you feel about the other changes. To
summarize:<br>
<br>
In section 16.3.2:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2
level1 lfo4">
Update option 1 to allow more keys to be shipped and keys
generated <b>in</b> crypto-devices instead of outside and
then imported<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2
level1 lfo4">
Removal of option 4<o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
<p>We will probably need some more analysis comparing "signing
service" vs "cloud provider" to get a better feeling of the
functional differences and adjust accordingly.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Dimitris.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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