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    <p><font face="Calibri">Dimitris,</font></p>
    <p>although the QSCD/SSCD issue may not be germane to this
      discussion .... can you point me to any QSCD device whose CC
      certification is based on a PP other than the one I mentioned? Or
      put another way, can you explain what are the differences between
      QSCDs and SSCDs? I am asking this candidly: I do not know, so I'd
      love to learn.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Coming back to the "core" issue: <br>
    </p>
    <p>I will give a concrete example of a device which, although it can
      be said (with a lot of poetic license, IMO) that it has a CC
      certification, I believe it does not meet the requirements of
      §16.3 (as I understand them). The "Nitrokey" product mentioned 
by
      Tomas some time ago is actually a family of devices with very
      different characteristics from each other. One of these, called
      "Nitrokey Pro", is based on a microcontroller (i.e. the HW
      component) with CC EAL5 + certification [1]. AFAIK, it is a very
      good microchip that has been used a lot, albeit now obsolete.
      Well, that microchip /in itself/ doesn't have any functionality to
      1) generate RSA or ECC keys, 2) execute signatures with those
      keys, 3) protect those keys. These features are (more or less)
      implemented by the Nitrokey firmware, which has no CC
      certification (please note: I am not saying that such firmware is
      or is not secure). If I am saying something wrong, I'd love to be
      corrected.<br>
    </p>
    <p>In short, in my opinion that device - although in practice it may
      be used and perhaps works very well - does not comply with §16.3,
      unless we clarify that the CC certification mentioned in §16.3 
is
      to be understood as referring to any part of the device, and
      without reference to any particular functionality (if this is the
      interpretation that the WG prefers).</p>
    <p>[1]
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0555a_pdf.pdf">https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/epfiles/0555a_pdf.pdf</a><br>
    </p>
    <p>Adriano</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Il 21/04/2021 19:55, Dimitris
      Zacharopoulos (HARICA) ha scritto:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:320c7141-099b-8e66-1da8-9790aa2c4a64@harica.gr">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <br>
      <br>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21/4/2021 4:07 μ.μ., Adriano
        Santoni via Cscwg-public wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178f48b387f-ae072308-6dbf-48d5-bed5-613665e8870f-000000@email.amazonses.com">
        <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
          charset=UTF-8">
        <p><font face="Calibri">Hi Dimitris,</font></p>
        <p>I am certainly /not/ a Common Criteria expert. However I
          believe it is appropriate for my role to try and get
          acquainted with at least the basics of such matter, also in
          order to be able to provide satisfactory answers to auditors
          :) <br>
        </p>
        <p>On the other hand, similar questions may also arise with
          regard to the HSMs used for signing certificates (and
          timestamps): the standards (both CABF and ETSI) require the
          CA/TSA to use an HSM with either FIPS o CC security
          certification, but when it comes to CC not all certifications
          are equivalent, so a minimum of analysis and discernment is
          required by those who select those HSMs. Therefore, I expect
          that in every responsible CA organization there is at least
          one person who knows "just enough" about this subject (without
          necessarily being an expert), namely FIPS 140-2 and CC
          certifications, to be able to make or suggest a sensible
          choice, and one that is tenable in front of an auditor.</p>
        <p>Coming to your questions and comments:<br>
        </p>
        <p>* I like the idea of ​​a guidance web page, like the one you
          mentioned.<br>
        </p>
        <p>* I disagree that a QSCD is more secure than an SSCD; my
          understanding is that QSCD is essentially a new name for an
          old thing (the SSCD), and in fact the devices referred to as
          QSCD on <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://esignature.ec.europa.eu/efda/notification-tool/#/screen/browse/list/QSCD_SSCD"
            moz-do-not-send="true">https://esignature.ec.europa.eu/efda/notification-tool/#/screen/browse/list/QSCD_SSCD</a>
          are often "in SSCD configuration" as shown by the relevant STs
          (see for example <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
            href="https://www.ssi.gouv.fr/uploads/2020/08/anssi-cible-cc-2020_73en"
            moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ssi.gouv.fr/uploads/2020/08/anssi-cible-cc-2020_73en</a>.
          pdf, but there are many others) and their STs refer to the
          old, obsolete but still used "Protection Profiles for Secure
          Signature Creation Device" (see for example <a
            class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
            href="https://www.sogis.eu/documents/cc/pp/sc/sscd/obsolete/pp0059a.pdf"
            moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.sogis.eu/documents/cc/pp/sc/sscd/obsolete/pp0059a.pdf</a>)<br>
        </p>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      This is not my understanding at all. Some chips/components may be
      the same, but the certification is new. It's not a
      re-certification.<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178f48b387f-ae072308-6dbf-48d5-bed5-613665e8870f-000000@email.amazonses.com">
        <p> </p>
        <p> </p>
        <blockquote type="cite"> Is there some document/rule that
          SSCD/QSCD devices must meet the three security features you
          listed?</blockquote>
        No, and I have not said that there exists any. <br>
        <p>What I am proposing is that CAs make sure the crypto modules
          used by their Subscribers (for Code Signing purposes) have a
          CC certification (unless they have a proper FIPS 140-2
          certification) whose Security Target includes those three
          security features. These latter may not be expressed with
          exactly the same words that I used, because there is no such
          requirement for a ST (AFAIK). So, yes, it's up to the CA to
          figure out (or have someone figure out for them) if the ST of
          some crypto module includes those three security features.
          It's not always straightforward, but some guidance can be
          provided. <br>
        </p>
        <p>For example, regarding QSCDs/SSCDs, their CC certifications
          are usually based on STs claiming conformance to the
          "Protection profiles for secure signature creation device -
          Part 2: Device with key generation" (<a
            class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/pp0059b_pdf.pdf"
            moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/pp0059b_pdf.pdf</a>).
          This PP mandates the following security functions:</p>
        <p>* 10.2.2.1 FCS_CKM.1 Cryptographic key generation (page 28)</p>
        <p>* 10.2.2.3 FCS_COP.1 Cryptographic operation (page 28)</p>
        <p>* 10.2.3 User data protection (FDP) (page 29 and on)</p>
        <p>Note that I am not suggesting that we should recommend
          QSCDs/SSCDs, it's just one of a number of alternatives.<br>
        </p>
        <p>Another example can be made for Java Card -based devices,
          whose ST usually claims conformance to the Java Card
          Protection Profile (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/ANSSI-CC-profil_PP-2010-03en.pdf"
            moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/ANSSI-CC-profil_PP-2010-03en.pdf</a>).
          This PP mandates the following security functions:</p>
        <p>* FCS_CKM.1 Cryptographic key generation (page 71)<br>
        </p>
        <p>* FCS_COP.1 Cryptographic operation (page 72)</p>
        <p>* FCS_CKM.3 Cryptographic key access (page 71) => refers
          to the Java Card API that imply PIN-based user authentication</p>
        <p>Again, I want to emphasize that I am no expert, not trying to
          propose myself as one, and these are just proposals, based on
          my own comprehension of the matter, and any discussion on them
          is more than welcome.<br>
        </p>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      I will let others chime in and provide feedback if they expect
      this type of information to be clear and unambiguous for a CA and
      an auditor that has to examine certifications and security target
      documents for specific crypto devices.<br>
      <br>
      My opinion is that without the proper guidance from this group,
      this is too complicated and will cause mistakes and confusion.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Dimitris.<br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178f48b387f-ae072308-6dbf-48d5-bed5-613665e8870f-000000@email.amazonses.com">
        <p> </p>
        <p>Adriano</p>
        <p><br>
        </p>
        <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Il 21/04/2021 10:31, Dimitris
          Zacharopoulos (HARICA) via Cscwg-public ha scritto:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178f38dd465-2b85776e-001d-4d97-803e-cd9eb7e902b2-000000@email.amazonses.com">
          <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
            charset=UTF-8">
          <br>
          Hi Adriano,<br>
          <br>
          See answers inline.<br>
          <br>
          <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21/4/2021 10:34 π.μ., Adriano
            Santoni via Cscwg-public wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178f359feef-42c042b1-601d-4514-90ce-65532288a221-000000@email.amazonses.com">
            <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
              charset=UTF-8">
            <p><font face="Calibri">Hi Dimitris,</font></p>
            <p><font face="Calibri">to avoid misunderstandings: I am not
                at all suggesting to impose "additional"</font><font
                face="Calibri">requirements on crypto modules for Code
                Signing (by the Subscriber), but only to consider those
                devices that include the thhree security functions I
                have listed, which after all are quite common.<br>
              </font></p>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          <font face="Calibri">Perhaps I wrote it in an unclear way. I
            agree that most probably these are not "additional"
            requirements but more "specific" requirements that should
            already be fulfilled by existing certified crypto modules.
            My concern is how auditors/CAs will find supporting evidence
            that describes that these "specific" requirements are met.<br>
            <br>
            Does that make sense?<br>
            <br>
            <br>
          </font>
          <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178f359feef-42c042b1-601d-4514-90ce-65532288a221-000000@email.amazonses.com">
            <p><font face="Calibri"> </font></p>
            <p><font face="Calibri">For most cases it seems a relatively
                simple task to me. I'd prefer not to name products,
                however, if not absolutely necessary. I will try and
                provide some hints below. If this is not enough to
                clarify, I will provide some specific links.<br>
                <br>
                First of all, it is useful to remember that a complete
                list of devices such as smart cards that have a CC
                certification can be found on the website <a
                  class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                  href="https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/products/"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/products/</a>,
                and for each of them there is a link to download the
                Security Target. <br>
              </font></p>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          As you know, reviewing the Security Target is a very
          challenging task. Most of these documents are quite long (more
          than 100 pages). Even the certifications themselves are often
          10-30 pages long.<br>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178f359feef-42c042b1-601d-4514-90ce-65532288a221-000000@email.amazonses.com">
            <p><font face="Calibri"> </font></p>
            <p><font face="Calibri">That said, many of the devices
                listed here are (or are based on) Java Cards platforms
                conforming to the relevant Oracle specifications [1],
                and in that case we already know that the three security
                functions that I have listed are certainly implemented
                (as they are part of those specifications). For example,
                devices based on the NXP's "JCOP" platform fall into
                this category. The same applies to devices based on
                Thales' (formerly Gemalto) "MultiApp" platform,
                G&D's SmartCafé platform and several others.<br>
              </font></p>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178f359feef-42c042b1-601d-4514-90ce-65532288a221-000000@email.amazonses.com">
            <p><font face="Calibri"> However, there also are "native"
                (non Java Card-based) Card Operating Systems, such as
                e.g. Atos' (formerly Siemens) "CardOS", also featuring
                those three security functions, as it can be easily
                inferred from the related STs.<br>
                <br>
              </font></p>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          I understand that there are experts like yourself that are
          familiar with these terms but I'm afraid without the proper
          guidance from the CSBRs or the Code Signing WG, CAs and
          auditors will certainly have difficulties proving that certain
          devices meet these <b>more specific</b> requirements of the
          security target. Perhaps the WG could write an article like <a
            class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
            href="https://cabforum.org/guidance-ip-addresses-certificates/"
            moz-do-not-send="true">https://cabforum.org/guidance-ip-addresses-certificates/</a>
          or <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
            href="https://cabforum.org/internal-names/"
            moz-do-not-send="true">https://cabforum.org/internal-names/</a>
          about how a CA or an auditor can find the proper evidence to
          support the specific requirements of the newly proposed
          section 16.3.<br>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178f359feef-42c042b1-601d-4514-90ce-65532288a221-000000@email.amazonses.com">
            <p><font face="Calibri"> Another simple rule of thumb for
                understanding which devices are eligible is to consider
                devices that are certified as "secure signature devices"
                according to EU regulations (eIDAS), i.e. as SSCD / QSCD
                devices, because this implies (let me simplify the
                reasoning) having the three security features I have
                listed. <br>
              </font></p>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          Is there some document/rule that SSCD/QSCD devices must meet
          the three security features you listed?<br>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178f359feef-42c042b1-601d-4514-90ce-65532288a221-000000@email.amazonses.com">
            <p><font face="Calibri"> </font></p>
            <p><font face="Calibri">A list of devices already selected
                according to this criterion can be found at <a
                  class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://esignature.ec.europa.eu/efda/notification-tool/#/screen/browse/list/QSCD_SSCD"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">https://esignature.ec.europa.eu/efda/notification-tool/#/screen/browse/list/QSCD_SSCD</a>,
                . For the reasons above, I would consider all the
                smartcard-type devices listed therein as (potentially)
                suitable Subscriber devices for Code Signing <br>
              </font></p>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          I support adding a normative rule that CAs MAY consider that
          devices listed as Qualified Signature Creation Devices (QSCDs)
          as defined in point 23 of Article 2 of Regulation (EU)
          910/2014, meet the technical specifications and requirements
          of section 16.3. Then they can use the list you provided to
          simplify the evidence proof.<br>
          <br>
          I would rule out SSCDs as they are no longer considered as
          secure as the QSCDs. Most of them have expired certifications.<br>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178f359feef-42c042b1-601d-4514-90ce-65532288a221-000000@email.amazonses.com">
            <p><font face="Calibri"> </font></p>
            <p><font face="Calibri">Of course, having considered some
                devices based on the above criteria, it remains to be
                verified if they do support RSA keys up to 3072 bits or
                at least ECC P256 keys, which is not true for all of
                them, and if they are accompanied by suitable drivers
                (i.e. PKCS#11 and CSP/Minidriver). But these are not
                matters for the WG to discuss.<br>
              </font></p>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          I agree. <br>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178f359feef-42c042b1-601d-4514-90ce-65532288a221-000000@email.amazonses.com">
            <p><font face="Calibri"> </font></p>
            <p><font face="Calibri">Let me know if this answers your
                question.<br>
              </font></p>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          This is an interesting discussion and I think we can make some
          good progress and improve this section.<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          Dimitris.<br>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178f359feef-42c042b1-601d-4514-90ce-65532288a221-000000@email.amazonses.com">
            <p><font face="Calibri"> </font></p>
            <p><font face="Calibri">[1] <a
                  class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/javacard-specs-downloads.html"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/javacard-specs-downloads.html</a><br>
              </font></p>
            <p><font face="Calibri">Regards,<br>
              </font></p>
            <p><font face="Calibri">Adriano</font></p>
            <p><br>
            </p>
            <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Il 20/04/2021 13:26, Dimitris
              Zacharopoulos (HARICA) via Cscwg-public ha scritto:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178ef083b82-742a3605-7f6d-4e62-8d3c-a640a77022ed-000000@email.amazonses.com">
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              Adriano,<br>
              <br>
              Can you please share some examples of public
              certifications of equipment (HSMs and/or crypto-tokens)
              that contain this additional TOE security requirements
              information? This will be helpful for CAs and subscribers
              when deciding what equipment to purchase, but also
              auditors that will check that this equipment meets the
              compliance requirements.<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              Thank you,<br>
              Dimitris.<br>
              <br>
              <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 19/4/2021 4:31 μ.μ.,
                Adriano Santoni via Cscwg-public wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178ea5447e9-fee2f4ca-e086-49f1-a998-1452c2f12b02-000000@email.amazonses.com">
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                <p><font face="Calibri">All,</font></p>
                <p>as agreed during the last CSWG call, I am attaching
                  to this post a first attempt to revise CSBR §16.3
                  aimed at clarifyng what kind of CC certifications can
                  reasonably be considered acceptable of a hardware
                  crypto module for code signing (by the Subscriber).</p>
                <p>I cannot help but observe, however, that the third
                  option (bullet) in §16.3, although later on is "not
                  recommended", is still allowed although antithetical
                  to the second. Basically, this is saying: "you must
                  use a certified device, but not necessarily". From a
                  logical point of view, it seems to me that it makes no
                  sense. I suppose there is a rationale, probably
                  discussed a long time ago ...<br>
                </p>
                <p>Regards</p>
                <p>Adriano</p>
                <p><br>
                </p>
                <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Il 14/04/2021 22:08, Bruce
                  Morton via Cscwg-public ha scritto:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:01000178d2002b3c-ce36f3c2-c273-4e71-8213-e07814efd27b-000000@email.amazonses.com">
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                  <div class="WordSection1">
                    <p class="MsoNormal">MINUTE TAKER: <b>??</b><o:p></o:p></p>
                    <ol style="margin-top:0in" type="1" start="1">
                      <li class="MsoListParagraph"
                        style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">Roll
                        Call<o:p></o:p></li>
                      <li class="MsoListParagraph"
                        style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">Antitrust
                        statement<o:p></o:p></li>
                      <li class="MsoListParagraph"
                        style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">Approval
                        of prior meeting minutes (8 April 2021)<o:p></o:p></li>
                      <li class="MsoListParagraph"
                        style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">Cross-sign
                        Roots (Corey)<o:p></o:p></li>
                      <li class="MsoListParagraph"
                        style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">Certificate
                        Policy OID for Time-stamping (Bruce)<o:p></o:p></li>
                      <li class="MsoListParagraph"
                        style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">Common
                        Criteria requirement – update required for
                        CSBRs?<o:p></o:p></li>
                      <li class="MsoListParagraph"
                        style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">CSCWG-6
                        ballot -  status/questions (Ian) <o:p></o:p></li>
                      <li class="MsoListParagraph"
                        style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">Clean-up
                        ballot – status (Bruce) – SAN, CRL, FIPS 140-<b>2</b>,
                        Root/SubCA Key size, Cross-certificate, TS
                        SHA-1, Interoperability verification<o:p></o:p></li>
                      <li class="MsoListParagraph"
                        style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">Any
                        other business<o:p></o:p></li>
                      <li class="MsoListParagraph"
                        style="margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">Next
                        Meeting Apr 22<sup>nd</sup> <o:p></o:p></li>
                    </ol>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><b><o:p> </o:p></b></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><b>Bruce.<o:p></o:p></b></p>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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